What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2

HareKrishna · 11-17-2009, 05:19 AM

QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 16 2009, 12:24 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Nov 14 2009, 04:34 PM)Ashkenazi jews have 66% J and E, 5% Q and the rest 29% R and G
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What about the non-Ashkenazis Jews?

Also folks can we have map with the genetic evidence and language evidence superimposed?
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Ashkenazi made 90% of jews so they are representative for all jews .
The sephardi have more J and E so they are more middle -eastern.
Levites(priestly class) have a big percentage of R1a ,which somehow explain the red beard-blue eyed rabbi's.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2009, 06:13 AM by dhu.)

C Asia and Pakistan contains r1b1b1 which is a sister clade of the western R1b1b2. R1b expansion is probably over the Caspian with subsequent migration into Anatolia via the Caucasus and into Europe along both coasts of the Black Sea:

QUOTEVariations of R1b Ydna in Europe: Distribution and Origins
A.A.Foster. 13 March, 2005.
..
Complete R1b data from the "YHRD" database, indicated that, after an earlier existence in Asian Khazakstan, all European variants of R1b shared an existence in Russia ( in the region ofÂ Kazan, on the Volga river at about 55Â° North and 50Â° East), and that, laterÂ they separated and expandedÂ into two major migrations ( a westwardÂ migration to the Russian-Baltic region, and a south-western migration to the Black Sea area and then further, westwards, to the Alpine-South German region). Eventually, a North Sea-Baltic migration evolved from theÂ Russian-Baltic expansion; andÂ an Atlantic migrationÂ evolved from theÂ Alpine-South German variant.
..
Research showed that the greatest diversity ofÂ R1b's DYS 390 locus is within the Russian-Baltic region. The data suggested that the Russian-Baltic variant migrated/expanded from the Kazan region of Russia westwards to Moscow, and then to the Baltic States ofÂ Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia & Poland.

In this Baltic-Russian area, a sample ofÂ 159 haplotypes showed the R1b DYS390 percentages to be:

..
Baltic--RussianÂ R1b:
Diversity:Â Â Â Â 68.6% (Â²)
--
North Sea-Baltic R1b:
Diversity:Â Â Â Â 61.5% (Â²)
--
Alpine-South German R1b:
Diversity:Â Â Â 55.7% (Â²)
--
AtlanticÂ R1b:
Diversity:Â Â Â Â 46.1% (Â²)

R1a followed in its footsteps.

G.Subramaniam · 11-19-2009, 08:41 AM

Dhu
R1 is the parent and R1A and R1B are siblings correct ?
What is the date of R1B

dhu · 11-19-2009, 10:00 AM

R1 is the parent. R1 is the sibling of R2 which anchors the entire line in Asia. The progenitor P is also indian and is a sibling of NO which is SE Asian.

R1b is post-glacial. Some even say neolithic. This is a revision from the previous view of an expansion from euro ice age refuges (Iberian, Balkan).

R1b can be localized to Kazakhstan. R1a to Afpak. R2 to Bengal. P to S India. India also has its own Q lines (E Siberian, Nat Am) attesting to India's centrality in expansion of P. In the Thanseem study, P (excluding R1, R2, Q) was well attested in S Asian Muslims.

As amazing as it sounds, a full 50% (R1b, R1a) of Euro lines are traceable to Greater S Asia. The only explanation is post glacial expansion.

G.Subramaniam · 11-19-2009, 10:29 AM

QUOTE(dhu @ Nov 19 2009, 10:00 AM)R1 is the parent.Â R1 is the sibling of R2 which anchors the entire line in Asia.Â The progenitor P is also indian and is a sibling of NO which is SE Asian.Â

R1b is post-glacial.Â Some even say neolithic.Â This is a revision from the previous view of an expansion from euro ice age refuges (Iberian, Balkan).

R1b can be localized to Kazakhstan. R1a to Afpak.Â R2 to Bengal.Â P to S India.Â India also has its own Q lines (E Siberian, Nat Am) attesting to India's centrality in expansion of P.Â In the Thanseem study, P (excluding R1, R2, Q) was well attested in S Asian Muslims.

As amazing as it sounds, a full 50% (R1b, R1a) of Euro lines are traceable to Greater S Asia.Â The only explanation is post glacial expansion.
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Let me put forth my hypothesis
and see if you can comment
12000 BC, R1A1 develops adult lactose tolerance in AfPak, this causes sudden boost in population, since drinking cow milk is 4x more efficient than eating beef

This leads to development of proto-Indo-European AKA proto Sanskrit
The surplus population of R1A1 spills over to Andronovo region and beyond
leading to 50% R1A1 and 50% local Y sort of like reverse Anglo-Indian Hybrid

leading to Indo-Tajik-Slavic core
Secondary expansion of R1A1 10% elite dominate the remaining R1B

And this is the reason for Indo-European languages spread

Meanwhile in India, the cow becomes sacred as the link between milk and survival becomes clear

HareKrishna · 11-19-2009, 11:12 AM

Was J2 pre-neolithic?
The reasons for a neolithic J2 are as follow:

-The population of paleolithic India was 5-6 times bigger the that of paleolithic Middle east .How is that Middle-east didn't have the genetic fate of Europe?

-Farming in Middle east started 2000 years earlier over everybody else (9000BC versus 7000BC).This help ME genes to survive and even spread.

-The core of J2 is in the same region as beginning of farming

-J2 and spread on ME farmers correspond well whit archeological data .

G.Subramaniam · 11-19-2009, 11:15 AM

QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Nov 19 2009, 11:12 AM)Was J2 pre-neolithic?
The reasons for a neolithic J2 are as follow:

-The population of paleolithic India was 5-6 times bigger the that of paleolithic Middle east .How is that Middle-east didn't have the geneticÂ fate of Europe?

-Farming in Middle east started 2000 years earlier over everybody else (9000BC versus 7000BC).This help ME genes to survive and even spread.

-The core of J2 is in the same region as beginning of farming

-J2 and spread on ME farmers correspond well whit archeological data .
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Kivilsid put the origin of farming in South Asia

Also getting to middle east from India, means crossing deserts
whereas there a steppe-grassland highway from Afpak to Ukraine

HareKrishna · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2009, 12:41 PM by HareKrishna.)

QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 19 2009, 11:15 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Nov 19 2009, 11:12 AM)Was J2 pre-neolithic?
The reasons for a neolithic J2 are as follow:

-The population of paleolithic India was 5-6 times bigger the that of paleolithic Middle east .How is that Middle-east didn't have the geneticÂ fate of Europe?

-Farming in Middle east started 2000 years earlier over everybody else (9000BC versus 7000BC).This help ME genes to survive and even spread.

-The core of J2 is in the same region as beginning of farming

-J2 and spread on ME farmers correspond well whit archeological data .
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Kivilsid put the origin of farming in South Asia

Also getting to middle east from India, means crossing deserts
whereas there a steppe-grassland highway from Afpak to Ukraine
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Kivilsid put origin of indian farming in Mehrgarh .The wheat ,goats and cattle have origin in Kurdistan as show also by genetic.
Only zebu and rice was domesticated in India.
The desert didn't stop J2 to cross it.The same will be true for any other gene.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2009, 01:23 PM by dhu.)

QUOTEIndians appear to display the higher diversity both in haplogroups 3 and 9 - even if a pooled sample of eastern and southern European populations was considered. If we were to use the same arithmetic and logic (sensu haplogroup 9 is Neolithic) to give an interpretation of this table, then the straightforward suggestion would be that both Neolithic (agriculture)and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe.

Link

J as a whole has greatest age in Persia- the Indian expansion is dated slightly earlier than in Anatolia (Oppenheimer has a footnote on the relative ages, and thus dubs J as Jahangir). In all three areas, the expansion is paleolithic; that is, it's very unrealistic to expect a haplo derived directly from F root to remain circumscribed in ME until the neolithic signal is given, especially when the other candidate line (R ) in Europe is from a wholly different, distinctly Asiatic, and phylogenetically later 'process'.

It is quite a scandal that all the "experts" managed to switch IJ and R entry into europe. People are realizing this now.

J is derived directly from F via IJK. F has a number of lines directly from the root exclusive to India and is actually used as a marker for S Indians. Logically, IJ and G (Spencer's first impulse was to place the G locus in Hindu Kush) must have entered ME from the East with first AMH colonization of mideast (then onto Europe); however the expansion is ME. Recolonization from the East is also the only viable explanation for the N.Afr/ME versus Subsaharan genetic break ( as Toba is for S Asia versus SEA ). These events are much earlier than the R expansion out of S Asia.

Indic Mittani managed to gain a foothold in the northern Kurdish hinterlands but could hardly impact the more settled populations in the crescent. Similarly, the relatively established populations in the ME were less affected by the R expansion than the recovering populations along the northern route. R naturally expanded in the direction of least resistance.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2009, 01:35 PM by dhu.)

QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 19 2009, 10:29 AM)leading to 50% R1A1 and 50% local Y sort of like reverse Anglo-Indian Hybrid
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East Siberian N makes up a vast proportion of the non-R population in Russia, but is a later entrant compared to R; this effectively means a near complete replacement in Russia.

HareKrishna · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2009, 02:20 PM by HareKrishna.)

[quote=dhu,Nov 19 2009, 12:58 PM]
[quote]Indians appear to display the higher diversity both in haplogroups 3 and 9 - even if a pooled sample of eastern and southern European populations was considered. If we were to use the same arithmetic and logic (sensu haplogroup 9 is Neolithic) to give an interpretation ofspecially when the other candidate line (R ) in Europe is from a wholly different, distinctly Asiatic, and phylogenetically later 'process'.

It is quite a scandal that all the "experts" managed to switch IJ and R entry into europe. People are realizing this now.
e northern route. R naturally expanded in the direction of least resistance.
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Yet the biggest diversity for J is around Kurdistan.
Lets not confuse date of mutation whit the date of expansion.
It remain to establish how much J is neolithic and how much in pre-neolithic.
Maybe J in Europe is pre-neolithic also;we wonder why not alll of Europe become J2 and E3b if the farmer migration from the Turkey was so important.Why J2 stop to Balkan and Italy despite the fact that farming spread up to Denmark?

Beside ,J2 is very new ,comparative whit other y-chromosomes.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 11-20-2009, 03:32 AM by dhu.)

N pre-toba. R post-toba.
Pre-N in Malaysia.
M shared with E Asia.

Reich in his magnum opus (while referencing Bamshad 2001!!) managed to discuss the much derived U2i and U2e but conveniently forgot about the more relevant super-families, with R rooted firmly in India. It would be criminal if it were not so ridiculous.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 11-20-2009, 02:17 PM by dhu.)

http://www.mapshop.com/Raised_Relief/Conti...s/EurasiaRR.jpg

Look at the map. Eurostan indeed appears equivalent to Beringia as a geographical culdesac and genetic sink. Italy even appears as an equivalent of Kamchatka... Atleast E siberia had haplo N..... Euro I was, in contrast, a non-starter, even though joined at the hip with J.

It is quite easy to claim that 'indians' came from europe, quite another to say that 'pakistanis' came from europe. We are colonially habituated to the former "theory" while the latter is nearly unponderable!!!

dhu · 11-20-2009, 02:21 PM

perceptive..

QUOTEI don't have any problem with accepting the wogginess of R1b i.e its Asian origins. It is a young haplogroup judging from its spread of SNPs and developed near or the same locales as its confreres in Asia, which are more common in non Caucasoids. Humans may be made in God's image but essentially they are just stupid animals and they do what they do without much rhyme or reason. R1b ventured into Europe from Asia as Asia was already heavily occupied and full of large well defended populations. Europe was relatively unoccupied, heavily forested, had fertile soils and congenial climates. Who in their right mind would go to Siberia, India, the deserts of Araby or Iran? <b>Think of Europe's history. How many invasions has it endured from the East? </b>India had its famous Aryan invasion, and the later Muslim push. China its Mongolians, Huns, Manchus - mostly minor players. Europe experienced it all, even Jews and Gypsies. How many Jews and Gypsies went East? Hardly any, most got thoroughly assimilated. <b>In Europe there are still Jews and Gypsies, despite the efforts of the Final Solution. Look at what is happening in Europe now with many Africans and Asians illegally migrating there.
</b>
In other words R1b carrying men did the same as the Etruscans, Phoenicians, Jews and Gypsies after them. <b>Go West Young Men was their motto.</b>

dhu · (This post was last modified: 11-22-2009, 07:45 AM by dhu.)

GS,

Looks like the R root M207 is circumscribed to South Asia. R2 is also an indirect measure of R root variance.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lvVZ6C97yUo/SwbT...s1600/Hap-R.jpg

R* root - M207 --- circumscribed in South Asia

R1* -M173
R1a1 - M17

R1b* root - M343
R1b1b2 - M269
R1b1b2.. - M405

It's quite a fall from grace for the herrenvolk and steppe crusaders.

added:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/11/.../DCSupplemental

G.Subramaniam · 11-22-2009, 07:02 AM

QUOTE(dhu @ Nov 22 2009, 01:12 AM)GS,

Looks like the R root M207 is circumscribed to South Asia. R2 is also an indirect measure of R root variance.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lvVZ6C97yUo/SwbT...s1600/Hap-R.jpg

R* root - M207 --- circumscribed in South Asia

R1* -M173
R1a1 - M17

R1b* root - M343
R1b1b2 - M269
R1b1b2.. - M405

It's quite a fall from grace for the herrenvolk and steppe crusaders.
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If we look at Anglo-Indian hybrids, racially they are 50% Indian and 50% euro
Put them in Europe for 4000 years, due to evolution their skin tone will be indistinguishable from Euros

The reverse also applies, R1A1 is found 50% in the slavs
and if we consider the slavs as Anglo-Indian hybrids in reverse
A fairly recent, 8000 years ago, 50% Afpak intrusion into the pre-slavs
would indeed produce the present slavs with IE language

G.Subramaniam · (This post was last modified: 11-22-2009, 07:19 AM by G.Subramaniam.)

Dhu, I lost the DNA URLs could you please re-provide

As a general rule, if someone posts DNA stuff on this forum,
I would like to see a URL

Thanks

G.S

dhu · (This post was last modified: 11-22-2009, 04:04 PM by dhu.)

http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/forum/11-...plogroup-y-dna/
username: asdfg
password: abcd

http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/index/
http://music000001.blogspot.com/2009/07/17...r-download.html
http://remotecentral.blogspot.com/2009/04/...tdna-and-y.html (this one is by a quasi euro supremacist; stiil he gets shown his place by a basque fellow).

added:
http://remotecentral.blogspot.com/2008/05/...l.html#comments

G.Subramaniam · 11-22-2009, 08:05 AM

QUOTE(dhu @ Nov 22 2009, 07:29 AM)http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/forum/11-...plogroup-y-dna/
username: asdfg
password: abcd

http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/index/
http://music000001.blogspot.com/2009/07/17...r-download.html
http://remotecentral.blogspot.com/2009/04/...tdna-and-y.html (this one is by a quasi euro supremacist; stiil he gets shown his place by a basque fellow).
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Can you please leave this on and not delete it as before

Thanks

G.S

dhu · 11-22-2009, 01:55 PM

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/11/.../DCSupplemental

Latest Underhill meta-analysis shows H in Madagsacar. Probably an Indian division which sailed with argonauts out of SEA.

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