What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2

[dhu]

H-tler believed or wanted to believe that Germans are the purest Aryans and that a true Aryan has blond hair and blue eyes. However, the ancient Germans have been proven to have had darker skin and hair!



"Ancient Germans weren't so fair" by Anna Salleh in Brisbane

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1154815.htm



"Chamberlain finds...'the prevalence of dark color among the members of the most genuine old Germanic nobility. In England this is quite striking.' ... He notes the same in Germany among the old nobility. '...the true type of the primeval Teuton,' have dark or black hair." (Frank H. Hankins, The Racial Basis of Civilization: A Critique of the Nordic Doctrine, 1931)

[ramana]

Pioneer Article:



The India we never Knew

VIVACITY | Tuesday, August 2, 2011 | Email | Print | | Back





The India we have never known



August 01, 2011 11:21:59 PM



Recently-developed software have proved the dates of important events as mentioned in our ancient scriptures to be true. Researches have also brushed aside the prevalent Aryan invasion theory.

Rahul Devrani reports



Perhaps it’s time our history books got a revision. Indian scientists have now gathered enough evidence to brush aside the “Indo-Aryan invasion” ideology, claiming that we have been “brainwashed for more than 150 years” by the Western theories on our civilisation. Fact is there was no Aryan invasion or migration, it is only a misnomer.



Research carried out by the Institute of Scientific Research on Vedas (I-SERVE) has elaborately shown results, with ocular proof, and revealed interesting facts. Several sites excavated in the past 30 years have yielded evidence of an established culture dating much before than we believed, to almost 8,000 years ago. Historians and scientists from numerous fields like astronomy, archaeology and anthropology gathered for a seminar here over the weekend to confirm our rich past.



There have already been findings of terracotta excavations of Shivlinga at Kalibangan dated 2600 BC indicating that people did pray in the same manner as us thousands of years ago. Besides, terracotta figures with the namaste gesture and using vermillion too have been excavated dating back to 2600 BC. Copper rings and beads that point towards an emergence of metal technology and grains of domesticated rice have also been found dating back to the 7th millennium BC.



Kulbhushan Mishra, research associate, Indian Archeological Society, says that there is enough evidence indicating an indigenous origin of Indian civilisation that has made the foreign theories take a back seat. “With advancement in technology, the perception of Indian archeology has changed significantly. We have an incredibly large volume of new data to prove our indigenous origins. We have found items like an agricultural plough, cart and combs that are thousands of years old. The material testimonies of various excavations have shown gradual cultural developments from the 7th-6th millennium BC in the entire region of Indus-Saraswati-Ganga system for a period of almost 8,000 years.”



Similarly, astronomical research has held the earlier propositions by many scientists that various events mentioned in our ancient scriptures actually did take place and are flawlessly true. “Several software have been developed recently that can provide us the sky view at a point of time in past or future. For example, Planetarium Gold is one such software. When we set dates of various events as mentioned in scriptures, we got exactly the same view of planets/stars as mentioned in the Ramayana and Mahabharata,” explains Pushkar Bhatnagar, an astronomy researcher.



Making use of the technological advancements by others in the past, scientists have come up with results that prove various events mentioned in the vast storehouse of ancient Sanskrit literature in India to be consistent.



Since time immemorial, we’ve all been celebrating Diwali and Janmashtami among other festivals that find their origins in the ancient scriptures. It is indeed a matter of pride to know how reliable our scriptures are. However, these researches also go on to show the brilliance of the writers like Valmiki who wrote thousands of years ago, yet mentioned the sky view, which tallied with planetary positions of the same time period.



Besides, research on sea level fluctuations has also revealed that many ancient towns are lying submerged under the sea.



Another interesting fact that not many people are aware of is that the Indians are part of the same gene pool as of the earliest of anatomically modern humans who expanded out of Africa. “There is a lot of sharing and continuity between the people of India. And this goes back to the ancient times. Africa is the place of transformation. The ancient homosapeians were replaced by modern humans roughly 180,000 YBP. Large amount of empirical data from India generated through DNA sampling has shown that India too was part of this expansion,” says professor VR Rao, one of the senior researchers engaged with I-SERVE.



This also means that the highly misunderstood Jarawas, indigenous adivasis of Andaman, which means “hostile people”, are in fact the direct descendents of human expansion and we share this ancient substratum.



Data collected through the study of jaws of human remains in the Holocene period shows that the genetic profile of all the Indians does not match the Europeans. “Language is transient so we cannot categorise it in the genetic profile of those people. But what studies have shown till now is that Indians have received limited gene flow from external regions. The only change one can see is in terms of hierarchy. This can be attributed to the arrival of Central Asian pastoralists. But they have got nothing to do with the Indian genetics,” adds Rao.



Besides, there has also been evidence that developments in language and eating cooked food started in India more than 11,000 years ago.



“Not only are the various events consistent and fall in a sequence but various ecological references and varieties of cultivated plants, trees and herbs mentioned in Vedas and epics have existed in India for more than 10, 000 years,” says Saroj Bala, Director, I-SERVE Delhi Chapter, adding, “These results support that we have one of the oldest cultural heritage.”

[Guest]

I always say, All Indian religious books are best preserved History books. Which covers Science, Astronomy, Mathematics, History, Geology, Horticulture, Geography, Climate Change etc.

[ramana]

APJ Kalam



LINK

Past meets the Present Leading to a Better Future







"The DNA of a human being is

his history book ever written"



I am indeed delighted to participate in the inauguration of Seminar on Scientific Dating of Ancient Events Before 2000 BC at New Delhi. My greetings to all of you. Friends, I am happy that all of you are engaged in the mission of establishing synergy between the scientific wisdom of ancient India and modern scientific inventions in various areas such as agriculture, energy, medicine, weapon systems and metallurgy. I am sure this type of study will enable us to utilize the scientific techniques used by our ancestors and lead towards an eco-friendly planet earth for the present and future. When I am here with all of you I would like to share my thoughts on the topic "Past meets the Present leading to a Better Future".















Friends, when you are all working on scientific dating of epics particularly Ramayana I would like to share with you my personal experience. I was born in British India in Rameshwaram grown there for 16 years when India?s India emerged. My life is completely inter connected in lovely way because during various phases my life sea waves were giving me beautiful songs, songs of freedom and songs of development. The entire Rameshwaram Island is known to me with great detail every part of it, because as a young boy I used to travel all parts of the Island to deliver the news paper daily to various houses. In my eyes Gandhamanaparvatham appears from where Rama is supposed to have seen Srilanka. In front of me appears the famous Kothanda Ramar Temple of Rameshwaram. Also I see the Ramatheertham, Lakshmanatheertham and Jatayutheertham and Agnitheertham in different areas of Rameshwaram. The central point is the Ramanathaswamy Temple where we find the Siva linga which Lord Rama had worshiped. Today being the new moon day of Adi month, minimum 3 Lakh pilgrims from different parts of the country will be converging at Rameshwaram for sea both. This the day Lord Rama is supposed to have taken the bath in the Rameshwaram Sea after returning from the war to remove the Doshas of killing Ravanan. Thousands of pilgrims visit the Island every day and enjoy its beauty and spirituality. I will be the happiest fellow, if through scientific dimensions establish the places from where there Lord Ram, Lashmana, Hanuman, Sugreeva and the Vanara sena created a base before launching the war on Srilanka. Really I have a profound interest in scientific dating of Ramayana.







Dating of events leads to transforming mythology into history





Vedic and post-Vedic literature has a tremendous amount of scientific knowledge which will be extremely beneficial to humanity. For creating a faith in these documents, there is a need to establish the date of occurrence of Vedas and Upanishads which are contained in our mythology, so that they are transformed into historical events and not imaginary mythological events. I am happy that this is what the researchers in astronomy, ecology, theology, archeology, anthropology and space science assembled here have carried out and are in the process of demonstrating it to the modern scientific world.













If we look at the study on Scientific dating of Ramayana, the important aspect about the Ramayana is that when Valmiki wrote the epic, he made it with many proofs. He packed so much information about the various planetary positions of those days, the geography of the areas mentioned in the epic, the seasonal events, and about the genealogy of various kings that it is virtually a no-brainer to establish the dates on which those events occurred.













Genealogical links and archaeological findings provide clues to the dating of the Ramayana era. According to writer B.R. Haran, In no other nation and no other religion in the world, true history is so meticulously documented, supported by many evidences. Any ancient history is supported with evidences of architecture and literature. The Sangam literature is the documented evidence for the existence and ruling of Tamil kings, and similarly, Ramayana and Mahabharata are the documented evidence for Rama and Krishna.



Archaeological and literary methods can only provide approximate datelines. For determining the precise time of the Ramayana events, scientists use astronomical calculations. Several of India's leading astronomers and nuclear scientists have come together to establish the dates of India's ancient history.













So how is astronomical dating done? Says eminent historian Dr P.V. Vartak: "Sage Valmiki has recorded the dates of events in detail, albeit by describing the positions of stars and planets. To decipher the astronomical encodings has not been a trivial task, and not many have attempted to do so. It should be noted that the ancient Indians had a perfect method of time measurement. They recorded the 'tithis', days according to the nakshatra on which the moon prevailed, the months, the seasons and even the different solstices. By noting a particular arrangement of the astronomical bodies, which occurs once in many thousand years, the dates of the events can be calculated."













Dr Vartak has taken hundreds of illustrated passages from the epic to establish dates. Valmiki records the birth of Rama as Chaitra Shuddha Navami (9th), on Punarvasu Nakshatra and five planets were exalted then; Sun in Mesha up to 10 deg., Mars in Capricorn at 28 deg., Jupiter in Cancer at 5 deg., Venus in Pisces at 27 deg. and Saturn in Libra at 20 deg. (Bala Kanda.18/Shloka 8,9). December 4, 7323 B.C. therefore is the date of birth of Rama, when the four planets exalted. Ramayana occurred over 9300 years ago.













For example, Rigveda talks about an advanced civilized predominantly urban and maritime society which has used variety of ships, boats and 75 different types of houses which includes hutments and palaces. Vedic literature reveals that Indians are very advanced knowledge of mathematics and were possessing extraordinary knowledge of astronomy. Takshila University was established in 700 BC where more than 10,000 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects. Similarly, Nalanda university was in existence in 3rd century BC which had housed more than 90 lakhs books. Maharishi Atreya was the first Guru of internal medicine, Shri Dhanvantri of Surgery and Kashyapa was the first Guru of Gynecology and pediatrics. Shushruta Samhita describes more than 40 types of surgical instruments and Ayurveda talks about holistic treatments.













Astronomical calculation making use of planetarium software have proved that events narrated in Balamiki Ramayana actually occurred around 7000 years back and they can be sequentially dated. Ramasetu is found submerged and the same location as is described in Balamiki Ramayana and the city of Dwarka has been explored by marine archeology wing of Govt of India.













As per the estimate made by the Inter-Governmental panel on Climate Change (NASA, Global Change Master Directory) the rise in the sea level during the last 7000 years has been about 2.8 meters which roughly corresponds to 9.3 feet. The remains of Rama Sethu are found submerged nearly at a depth of 9-10 feet. Thus, obviously this bridge was capable of being used as a land route 7000 years back. This is the only existing evidence on manmade bridge few thousand years back. It is essential that our researchers launch a mission oriented programme in an integrated way by earth science, geological science, remote sensing, space scientists, oceanography, climate change teams and the people who build construction under the sea.













Here I request the researchers to launch research on India?s Epics with atleast 100 Ph.D?s with the highly talented historical, geological, astronomical and space scientists to ascertain the veracity of history and date of events in our epics. Science always has multiple source of research information to verify the conclusion. It should be true to all our research on epics and its dating.



Let me now discuss the work of Prof Tobias on human evolution.







Human Evolution





I was studying the work of Prof. Tobias on Paleo-anthropology and discovery of archeological sites, I thought of recalling the advances made in the research on human evolution. Traditionally, there have been two distinct and different approaches in understanding human evolution. First is the archeological evidence. The lessons that we have learnt in India from Mohan-ja-Daro and Harappa and many similar excavations the worlds over have been seminal and many a civilization?s way of living, its culture and its origins have become evident.













Prof. Tobias has made a significant impact in this area, particularly emanating from land, which is said to the cradle of human evolution. The second and more recent approach is propelled by advances in our understanding of the human genome. While the major part of the human genome sequence is common between human beings and even with mice, the small portions that differ; control and contribute to the diversity that we find in the evolution of humans.













I am happy that through such genomic studies, it has been found that Harappan civilization were not a mysterious people of unknown biological origins, or migrants from Centers of high culture in western Asia, but were descendents of population identified with pre-Harappan cultures of the North Western sector of the sub continent. Gene flow between Mesopotamia and the Indus domains, perhaps along trade routes, accounts for the higher incidents of some phenotypic features along this east west axis than what is apparent across north south axis penetrating peninsular India. But, migrant theory need not be invoked to explain various patterns. This makes research in genetic engineering, using human genome sequences to understand the evolution of humans, very fascinating for scientists. The scientific dating of our epics has also to be related to Genology with human genome sequences, with the evidences that we found in the form of fossils.













Prof. Tobias is one of the pioneers in the area of genetics. From his vast experience in genetics and Paleo-anthropology, Prof. Tobias has been able to present to the world in an understandable capsule form, the whole process of human evolution over 600 million years. The simplicity of the outcome of his complex research has also stimulated many scientists the world over to look at the challenges posed in our understanding of human evolution. Today, the world talks about convergence of many technologies. Prof. Tobias and others have shown us that all our origins converge to a single point both in space and time. The evolution human orgin put forth by Prof Thobias should be related to events of Indian epics. After all every Indian?s epic deals with human history, their conflicts and their civilization. Hence it has to be releated with the evolution of human origin over 600 million years ago, which is scientifically proven.







Origins of Life





Ancient human history has been revealed beautifully by Paleoanthropology. Life originated 600 million years ago and continental drift occurred 200 million years ago creating five continents. Mammals evolved 140 million years ago, Hominids that is the human type, evolved 26 million years ago but modern man only arrived on the scene some 200,000 years ago. He migrated and colonized the world only in the last 50,000 years. The spoken language is some 10,000 years old while writing evolved only a few thousand years ago. All this phenomenal progress has been achieved only within the short span of 200 to 400 generations that is in just 10,000 to 5,000 years. The spoken language period as per Prof. Thobias is around 10000 years old and the birth of Rama based on the 9th thithi of Chaitra month dates to 10th January in 5114 BC, that is 7117 years back. We need to establish the relationship between the birth of spoken language and the evolution of Valmiki Ramayana.







New DNA technologies





Newer DNA technologies have given us better insight in retracing the history of man. ?The DNA of a human being is his history book ever written?. Nowadays intelligence, cognizance, drug response, behavioral problems everything is related to genes: disease gene mapping is progressing at a faster pace with new age DNA technology. It is probably during the 30,000-50,000 years of co-existence that societies have evolved adopting newer innovations and cultures.



Thus the 'Nature - Nurture' philosophy holds good even in this Genomic Era: ?Genes? what we inherit from our parents is the basis; a beautiful 'building' is built over it, be it Einstein or certain unique creations, the environment plays a crucial role in shaping the destiny of the individual and leading to excellence. It is just the opportunity that makes Man. All children when they are born are equally poised to become a great scholar. The nervous system, and for that matter any of our systems, should cooperate with an individual in his or her progress.







Origin of civilization in Indian subcontinent





I am happy that through the use of modern technology the perception of Indian Archeology has changed and has facilitated by researchers to prove an indigenous origin of civilization in the Indian Sub continent. This is an important factor which should work as an integrator of the entire nation since all of us have come into this land from the same ancestors and roots. While discussing this issue I am reminded of a conversation with one of my cardio thoracic surgeon friend. He said, "When I perform an open heart surgery, on different patients; after opening I find the blood of the patient is same in color, hence I cannot discriminate any patient and provide differing attention and care." This thought process has to get embedded scientifically and culturally amongst all Indians so that we can see nation is bigger than any individual and all of us have to contribute to the accelerated progress and development of the nation. Now let me talk about certain application of knowledge derived from Scientific Dating of Ancient Events.







Agriculture in Ancient India





The dating studies have found that the farmers in the vedic period used natural manures for their agriculture. They have found 12 types of soil and determined the associated organic manure compatible to the soil types. They did not make use of pesticides or any poisonous elements in the agro sector. This has resulted in reduced atmospheric pollution and also provided quality food for the humankind. We have to learn a lot from this experience. Today, we have to ensure that we should use eco friendly fertilizers, pesticides and plant systems in our overall agricultural development taking the cue from ancient civilization that will make a big contribution to green agriculture goal of 21st century. We need to integrate our past civilizational heritage in forms of agriculture or other forms of systems which provides earning capacity with reference to modern technologies. Induction of modern technology definitely add values to our ancestor database of civilizational heritage.













The mission for scientific dating of our epics, I have the following suggestion:



1. Launching research on India's Epics with atleast 100 Ph.D?s with the highly talented historical, geological, astronomical and space scientists to ascertain the veracity of history and date of events in our epics.



2. The scientific dating of our epics has also to be related to Genealogy with human genome sequences, with the evidences that we found in the form of fossils.



3. The evolution human origin put forth by Prof Thobias should be related to events of Indian epics. After all every Indian's epic deals with human history, their conflicts and their civilization. Hence it has to be related with the evolution of human origin over 600 million years ago, which is scientifically proven.



4. The spoken language period as per Prof. Thobias is around 10000 years old and the birth of Rama based on the 9th thithi of Chaitra month dates to 10th January in 5114 BC, that is 7117 years back. We need to establish the relationship between the birth of spoken language and the evolution of Valmiki Ramayana.







Conclusion





I have discussed few areas which can benefit from the dating of our ancient events. I am sure the scientists and technologists assembled here will be presenting several areas in which the dating can be beneficial. To disseminate the findings of these studies to the large population will require intensive documentation and the application potential of each one of the findings. I would suggest that the teams assembled here can work out areas which need to become the part of the learning process of our youth. This will enable the seminar to make specific recommendations on including vital areas of our ancient culture in the primary, middle and secondary school text books. In addition, the seminar should attempt networking of people and ideas belonging to different specialties like agro scientists, doctors, engineers, archeologists, geologists and environment experts so that the benefits of lesions arising from earlier civilization and their lifestyle make a change to our thinking and lead towards the development of an eco friendly human habitat. The research on scientific dating may have partners, who can provide scientific, astronomical, anthropological and geological and genetic data to ascertain the veracity of the historical events.













With these words, I inaugurate the Seminar on Scientific Dating of Ancient Events before 2000 BC. My best wishes to all the participating for success in the mission of connecting the past to the present leading to a better future.



May God bless you.





By, Dr. APJ Abdulkalam

www.abdulkalam.com

[HareKrishna]

Yep.Aryans came in Europe from Punjab.

[Husky]

http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2011/09/e...ataka.html

Inferno said...

Indians share milk-digesting trait with Europeans

Only 32 per cent of people world over have the ability to digest milk. This study sought to determine the evolution of lactase persistence in the sub-continent, given the high-levels of milk consumption in India and domestication of cattle in the Indus Valley, roughly 7,000 years ago.



9/08/2011 5:35 PM

Above comment links to:

www.thehindu.com/health/diet-and-nutrition/article2436885.ece

HYDERABAD, September 9, 2011

Indians share milk-digesting trait with Europeans

Y. Mallikarjun

Study published online in the Oxford University Press journal



A new study has revealed that Indians, Europeans and people from West Asia share a common genetic mutation that allows them to digest milk.



The study was carried out by scientists from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB) in collaboration with researchers from nine other institutions, including Cambridge University, University of Tartu, Harvard Medical School, Genome Foundation, Hyderabad and Chettinad Academy of Research & Education, Chennai. It was published online in the Oxford University Press journal Molecular Biology and Evolution.





Genetic affinities

Deputy Director of CCMB and principal Investigator of the Indian team Kumaraswamy Thangaraj said the frequency of the mutation was found to be predominant among North Indians and was in line with the findings of a previous CCMB study which showed that North Indians shared lot of genetic affinities with Europeans.

(I'd read in conjunction with the dates below.)



Lactase-persistent

Only 32 per cent of people world over are lactase-persistent and have the ability to digest milk and the genetic mutation enabling that process got evolved in the last 10, 000-12,000 years when humans started domesticating animals and began drinking cattle milk. Before that humans did not have that ability and constant consumption of milk over thousands of years made the body to adapt through mutation of lactase gene.



Natural selection

“It was the process of natural selection,” Dr. Thangaraj added.



With previous studies revealing that lactase persistence evolved in the last 10,000 years independently in Europe, West Asia and Africa, the present research sought to determine its evolution in the sub-continent, given the high-levels of milk consumption in India and [color="#0000FF"]domestication of cattle in the Indus Valley, roughly 7,000 years ago[/color].



He said that while the enzyme lactase to break down sugar in milk is produced in children, it's production is normally stopped in adults. The deficiency of the enzyme causes lactose intolerance in people.

[dhu]

The Paleolithic European haplogroups are G and I, very likely these populations supplemented their diet with marine fare and thus maintained their pigmentation. The newer Neolithic and post-Neolithic (including dairying) R1a1 and R1b inputs into Europe were very rapid dispersals from Asia (low STR diversity), yet the SNP phylogeny is quite clear about an S. Asian origin (R1/R2<P<MNOPS<K). Very likely, it was these post-glacial inputs from Asia, sheltered and possibly divorced from an appreciation of marine fare beginning in the Neolithic, that actuated the turn to albinoidism in Europe.

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='dhu' date='19 October 2011 - 07:57 AM' timestamp='1318990792' post='113386']

The Paleolithic European haplogroups are G and I, very likely these populations supplemented their diet with marine fare and thus maintained their pigmentation. The newer Neolithic and post-Neolithic (including dairying) R1a1 and R1b inputs into Europe were very rapid dispersals from Asia (low STR diversity), yet the SNP phylogeny is quite clear about an S. Asian origin (R1/R2<P<MNOPS<K). Very likely, it was these post-glacial inputs from Asia, sheltered and possibly divorced from an appreciation of marine fare beginning in the Neolithic, that actuated the turn to albinoidism in Europe.

[/quote]



The lighter pigment of whites is due to mutation in SLC24A5 and this has been dated to 8000 years ago, per wiki

[dhu]

G. Subramaniam,

The albino mutation is very recent while Europe has maintained a population for ~40K years (versus 85K in S Asia)

The question to ask is: Why did such a mutation not become established earlier if there were selective pressures.

Because, like the Eskimo-Inuits, the paleo-European diet was rich in Vitamin D acquired through fish fare, and therefore no pressure to select away darkened skin (darkened skin prevents endogenous Vitamin D formation in the skin via sunlight)

When the marine source of Vitamin D was lost because of Indic Neolithic (with no fish fare), the albino mutation became selective and became established (this mutation was most likely present in the originating populations in Kashmir/Punjab/Afghanistan)



Let us say the albino mutation is off-dated by 4 or 5 millenia in either direction.. It does not matter as long as it was not present since the outset of AMH presence in Europe, and a few ten millenia onwards..

The case of Inuits is the exception which proves the rule.

[HareKrishna]

During ice age Southern Europe climate was like Scandinavian tundra today.

There are 3 population waves from Asia at the end of ice age and beginning of farming age.

1.The big wave of farmers from Anatolia whit relative white skin(Anatolia was cold during ice age and still is cold).

2.The second big wave from Kashmir-Tajikistan settled mostly in Russia and Poland.They didnt have agriculture but they imitated from anatolians,however developing species resistant to extreme cold climate.

3.A small wave from China .

[rhytha]

Journey Of Man A Genetic Odyssey (PBS)



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T87GgyCqB4o&feature=player_embedded[/media]





If any one wants as downloadable file, inform me and i will upload and provide you the link.

[Meluhhan]

The Rig Veda states that the enemies of the Aryans went westward. The following comes from [url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07006.htm"]Book 7, Hymn 6[/url]:

1. PRAISE of the Asura, high imperial Ruler, the Manly One in whom the folk shall triumph-

I laud his deeds who is as strong as Indra, and lauding celebrate the Fort-destroyer.

2 Sage, Sing, Food, Light,—they bring him from the mountain, the blessed Sovran of the earth and heaven.

I decorate with songs the mighty actions which Agni, Fort-destroyer, did aforetime.

3 The foolish, faithless, rudely-speaking niggards, without belief or sacrifice or worship,—

Far far sway hath Agni chased those Dasytis, and, in the cast, hath turned the godless westward.

Persia lies to the west of Bharata, and the term "Dasa" has many similarities with "Daha", which is the name of a Persian tribe.

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='dhu' date='20 October 2011 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1319076769' post='113399']

G. Subramaniam,

The albino mutation is very recent while Europe has maintained a population for ~40K years (versus 85K in S Asia)

The question to ask is: Why did such a mutation not become established earlier if there were selective pressures.

Because, like the Eskimo-Inuits, the paleo-European diet was rich in Vitamin D acquired through fish fare, and therefore no pressure to select away darkened skin (darkened skin prevents endogenous Vitamin D formation in the skin via sunlight)

When the marine source of Vitamin D was lost because of Indic Neolithic (with no fish fare), the albino mutation became selective and became established (this mutation was most likely present in the originating populations in Kashmir/Punjab/Afghanistan)



Let us say the albino mutation is off-dated by 4 or 5 millenia in either direction.. It does not matter as long as it was not present since the outset of AMH presence in Europe, and a few ten millenia onwards..

The case of Inuits is the exception which proves the rule.

[/quote]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_...7446367-22



The theory suggests that the reduction of game meat, fish, and some plants from the diet resulted in skin turning white many thousands of years after settlement in Europe and Asia.[44][45] This theory is supported by a study into the SLC24A5 gene which found that the allelle associated with light skin in Europe may have originated as recently as 6,000–10,000 years ago[23] which is in line with the earliest evidence of farming.[46]



^ a b Gibbons, A. (2007). "AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS MEETING: European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests". Science 316 (5823): 364a. doi:10.1126/science.316.5823.364a. PMID 17446367.



So they became white just by 4000 BC



Also the pre-R1B Europeans were fishermen and this enabled them to survive Europe without pale pigment.



Also, Otzi, the frozen iceman from north Italy who froze 5000 years ago, was DNA analysed to be of haplogroup G2.

whereas 75% of modern Italians are R1b

[dhu]

Despite generously-funded research programs over the past 2 decades, nothing has been found supporting antiquity of the R line in Europe. These may be more recent than any have yet dared to claim. Even Bronze age?



R1b is very likely from Zagros/Baluchistan.

R1a1 is from Kashmir/Punjab/Gandhara.



I personally favor Indic sway over the entire W Eurasian landmass as would be seen over E Asia later (with Buddhist penetration deep into Siberia and Phillipines)



Just as Native American trails were well marked out and stretched across the N.Am. continent, the same was true for the Indics. Criss-crossing tribes across C Asia is a false paradigm. The pattern was Eastern explorers heading west yet maintaining connections across vast geographic and time scales. This is one positive contributions of Cremo's work: that the indics of pre-history were as sophisticated as native americans/vedics and were not at all cretins. I really doubt that the Turkic and Mongolian expansions dented the transcontinental understandings of the Indics; the operating matrix was heathen and not "ethnic" and any superficial language changes would have been absorbed without problems. It was only with Alexandrian monotheism that fragmentation and "independence" occurred.



It is even possible that E1b is the most native to Europe. Hitler would thus be a representative of the paleo-dark euro native which we are assured about in various places.

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='dhu' date='24 October 2011 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1319428719' post='113449']

Despite generously-funded research programs over the past 2 decades, nothing has been found supporting antiquity of the R line in Europe. These may be more recent than any have yet dared to claim. Even Bronze age?



R1b is very likely from Zagros/Baluchistan.

R1a1 is from Kashmir/Punjab/Gandhara.



I personally favor Indic sway over the entire W Eurasian landmass as would be seen over E Asia later (with Buddhist penetration deep into Siberia and Phillipines)



Just as Native American trails were well marked out and stretched across the N.Am. continent, the same was true for the Indics. Criss-crossing tribes across C Asia is a false paradigm. The pattern was Eastern explorers heading west yet maintaining connections across vast geographic and time scales. This is one positive contributions of Cremo's work: that the indics of pre-history were as sophisticated as native americans/vedics and were not at all cretins. I really doubt that the Turkic and Mongolian expansions dented the transcontinental understandings of the Indics; the operating matrix was heathen and not "ethnic" and any superficial language changes would have been absorbed without problems. It was only with Alexandrian monotheism that fragmentation and "independence" occurred.



It is even possible that E1b is the most native to Europe. Hitler would thus be a representative of the paleo-dark euro native which we are assured about in various places.

[/quote]



R reached Ireland only by 500BC and UK by 1000 BC

Italy had a sizeable non-R, the etruscans until 500BC and likely R entered Italy only by 1000BC.



The cretan Minoans were likely non-R and lasted until 1500BC



So there is no trace of R in Europe before the bronze age.



There is sizeable findings that the Scythians of Ukraine were Iranian in origin



Celts were originally far to the east. near the Danube and Germans even further east.

A very large number of current European ancestors were living outside the great wall of China



There is therefore very strong evidence of an Aryan invasion of Europe and genocide there

Most non-R men were killed and replaced by mono-genetic R

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='dhu' date='24 October 2011 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1319428719' post='113449']



R1b is very likely from Zagros/Baluchistan.



[/quote]

any evidence for that?



[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='24 October 2011 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1319462475' post='113457']

R reached Ireland only by 500BC and UK by 1000 BC

Italy had a sizeable non-R, the etruscans until 500BC and likely R entered Italy only by 1000BC.



The cretan Minoans were likely non-R and lasted until 1500BC



So there is no trace of R in Europe before the bronze age.



[/quote]

any evidence for that???

[dhu]

[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='24 October 2011 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1319462475' post='113457']

R reached Ireland only by 500BC and UK by 1000 BC

Italy had a sizeable non-R, the etruscans until 500BC and likely R entered Italy only by 1000BC.

The cretan Minoans were likely non-R and lasted until 1500BC[/quote]



Classical Minoan civilization utilizes the peacock motif quite liberally (search peacock minoan), and this manifests at the same time as in Mittani territory which we know was directly inundated by Indics.

Zebu is another motif noticeable in Asia minor at this time (including the Hatti [Hittites]), brought to light by Carlos Aramayo.

So there is no trace of R in Europe before the bronze age.

The jokers had 2 decades to bring forth evidence, we can safely conclude none is there..

There is sizeable findings that the Scythians of Ukraine were Iranian in origin

Celts were originally far to the east. near the Danube and Germans even further east.

A very large number of current European ancestors were living outside the great wall of China

There is therefore very strong evidence of an Aryan invasion of Europe and genocide there

Most non-R men were killed and replaced by mono-genetic R

R is stranded in Europe without any upstream nodes (i.e., P part of NOP, part of MNOPS). This indicates migration entry of both R1b and R1a1.

In fact, none of the haplogroups of Europe can be derived from any upstream nodes, each haplogroup represents a radically different process, and diversity is uniformally low. Only Beringia is comparable in its cul-de-sac-ness.

[G.Subramaniam]

Otzi died in North Italy in 3300 BC and is of Y-DNA-G2A, not R1B like 80% of modern italians



Meaning R1B did not reach Italy until after 3000 BC



Apparently they have recovered DNA from many pre-historic Europeans and when this is published, it will prove that R1B entered Europe after 2000 BC

[dhu]

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpa...tdna.shtml



check the y column: from 2 sites, G2 is represented in France and Italy (as well as undefined F which has obviously been replaced) from 5000 BCE to 3000 BC. One instance of I at the same France site



Let us be generous and say 25% freqeuncy of G in a population with 75% R. Chances of two sites both being G back to back is 0.25 x 0.25 = 6.25%.

IOW, it is very unlikely that there was any R at this time. R only shows up at 2000 BC in Germany in context of Corded Ware which is well a well defined intrusion from the East.

With no upstream nodes for R in Europe, this is an open-shut case in favor of replacement in Europe by an Asiatic line.

if this was any other region, we would not be having this conversation.

[pusan]

Intrusion into NW Europe from east is compatible with a Eurasian steppe homeland for R. A recent paper summarizing finds is ...



DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome - Part I & II

- Anatole A Klyosov, Nature 2008



According to the paper, there are two classes of R1a1 in India,

1. Recent, ~1500BC migration from steppes into NW India, called the Indo-European haplotype

All 15 Indian R1a1 haplotypes contain 88 mutations, that is 0.235 mutations per marker. It is significantly less than 0.296 mutations per marker in the Russianhaplotypes and corresponds to 3,675 years from a common ancestor. This is almost 1,150 years “younger” compared to the Russian one.

...

Excavations of some sites of Andronovo culture showed that eight inhabitants out of nine shared R1a1 haplogroup and haplotypes as follows, dating between 5,500 and 1,800 years bp:



13-25-16-11-11-14-X-Y-Z-14-11-32



In this example, alleles which have not been deciphered are replaced with letters. One can see that the ancient R1a1 haplotype closely resembles the Russian (as well as the other R1a1) ancestral haplotypes.

2. Older, with shared ancestor 5000-3000 BC found only in S India; specifically, tribes of Andhra. This is shared with people who live in China. The homeland is not yet determined for this haplotype.