Hi Everybody,
I'm curious to know how much in modern India do people consider the status of others, for example, modern Indians living in the city still select the future Wife/Husband in relation to his/her appartenance to the same varna?
I know for the Jatee it's another discussion, probably easier.
Altough the constitution has delated with laws casta's differences, in the habits is this virtual division still alive?
For rurals I suppose it still is the same, but for the other Bharati?

Waiting for kind answers... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Here you go again - Moron Singh And Queen's government logic at its best.

<b>Centre adds fuel to fatwa fire, defends Shariat courts</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Amidst raging debate over ‘fatwas’ issued by Shariat courts, the Centre has defended the Muslims’ right to have such courts saying it was part of their fundamental right to freedom of religion guaranteed under the Constitution.

“The functioning of Dar-ul-Qaza would be protected under the fundamental rights enshrined in Article 25 and 26(b) of the Constitution,” the Centre said in an affidavit filed in the Supreme Court in response to a PIL seeking ban on Shariat courts.

Article 25 guarantees freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion while under Article 26(b) every religious denomination enjoys freedom to manage its own affairs in matters of religion.

The petition filed by one Vishwa Lohan Madan last year sought direction to the Centre and other authorities to ban ‘Shariat Courts’ for running a “parallel judicial system” in the country.

But the Centre said, <b>“Freedom guaranteed by Article 26 to every religious denomination or every section thereof to establish and maintain institutions for religious and charitable purposes and to manage its own affairs in the matters of religion would include the freedom to establish Darul-Qaza/Nizam-ul-Qaza to settle disputes between two persons professing Islam, according to Sharia.”</b>
The Government emphasized that <b>“it is not a parallel judicial system” as the Qazis or Darul-Qaza/Nizam-e-Qaza did not prevent Muslims to report matters to the Judicial Machinery set up under the law of the land</b>.

<b>“Those who do not resort to Darul-Qaza/Nizam-e-Qaza are at liberty and fully entitled to resort to the court of law. </b>

There is no question of compelling anyone not to report matters to the judicial machinery<b>,” the affidavit filed by the Ministry of Law and Justice said. It also sought to dispel the impression that it created confusion in the minds of “uneducated multitude of Indian Muslim citizenry”.</b>

On the controversial issue of ‘fatwa’ issued by the ‘Shariat Courts’, the Centre said ‘fatwa’ meant “opinion” and even the seeker of opinion was not bound to follow it.

It submitted that <b>“the Mufti has no authority or powers to impose his opinion and enforce his ‘fatwa’ on anyone either by imposing any penalty as a fine or send him to jail.”</b>
Howver, it termed as “few bad examples” the ‘fatwas’ issued in cases relating to Imraana, Jyotsna Ara and Asoobi.

Justifying their role of ‘Shariat Courts’ in the Muslim society, the Centre said they “are conciliatory and/or mediatory for a, which strive to settle disputes outside the courts expeditiously in an amicable and inexpensive manner and have no real power or authority to enforce its orders.”

Terming the system of Islamic courts as a form of Alternative Disputes Redressal Forum, <b>the Government said, “it mainly performs conciliatory role without any enforcement powers.” </b>

The Centre said that in a number of cases Courts of Law have accepted the decision of Darul-Qaza and made them rule of the Court and passed decrees accordingly.

<b>“It is also in vogue in many non-Islamic countries, for example, in England,, which has a population of about 15 lakh Muslims, unofficial Sharia Panchayat are functioning.”</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Attack on Sonia brings out worst in Congress </b>
Pioneer.com
Deepak Kumar Jha | New Delhi
BJP members in the Municipal Corporation of Delhi (MCD) came closed to being thrashed by Congress councillors on Thursday for taking their party president's name. They were commenting on Sonia Gandhi's "indifference" on the sealing and demolition issue exercising thousands in the Capital.

The BJP members who are in a miniscule minority at Town Hall were attacked with paper missiles, water bottles, audio systems and later roundly abused by senior Congress members, so much so that the House called to discuss the burning sealing issue had to be adjourned.

The incident occurred in the afternoon, minutes after BJP corporators trooped into the House after participating with traders in true Gandhigiri style outside the Town Hall. <b>The protesters had gathered outside the MCD Headquarters in Chandni Chowk, where they placed colourful bouquets and cards with 'Get Well Soon' messages before the civic authorities and the State Government, in sharp contrast to the violence that had marred their bandh last month</b>.

Unfortunately, discussions within the <b>MCD House turned ugly when BJP councillor Ram Kishen Singhal indulged in Sonia bashing, encouraging his partymen to chant, 'Sonia Hai Hai' and 'Sonia -murdabad'. This led to, as some councillors put it, 'Sanjay Gandhigiri' type of reaction from the Congress benches who enjoys a brute majority in the House</b>. Mayor Farhad Suri had to adjourn the meeting four times.

Worse was to come as Congress councillors attacked Singhal led by Congress member Prem Kumar and Ajit Chaudhary. Members from both parties exchanged abusive words in the presence of their female colleagues.

It all started when Congress councillor from Seelampur, <b>Zamir Ahmed in his address mentioned that they did not take to the streets in Seelampur as "hamein upar se aadesh tha,". </b>This was enough for the BJP members led by Leader of Opposition Subash Arya and Standing Committee member <b>Vijender Gupta to ask Ahmed whether the "aadesh" was from none other than Sonia Gandhi and allege that the Congress wanted the sealing and demolition to continue in the Capital</b>. They were joined by other members from their side.

<b>"The Congress party and the so-called Personal Assistant (PA) of Sonia Gandhi, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh have a secret agenda and that is why they have not been responding to the problems of Delhiites the way they had in Maharashtra,"</b> alleged Gupta. This led to uproarious scenes with Congress councillors jumping to their feet and literarily pouncing on their BJP counterparts demanding they withdraw their Sonia-centric comments.

The BJP benches steadfastly stood their ground refusing to withdraw or express regret as they claimed there was "nothing unparliamentary about the comment" leading to uproarious scene and final adjournment.
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Please collect articles on caste system in Islam.

<img src='http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/24/images/2006102412060501.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Mughals strained every nerve to take it

T.V. Sivanandan



BAD STATE: The main entrance of Wagengera fort in Surpur town of Gulbarga district

GULBARGA: The Wagengera fort, which witnessed a historic struggle between the Bedar kings and the Mughals, led by Aurangazeb to establish supremacy in Surpur town in Gulbarga district in the 18th century, is in ruins.

The Archaeological Survey of India and also the State Archaeology Department appear to have done precious little to protect the fort.

A plaque embedded on the wall to the entrance of the fort reads in Persian: "By command of the emperor, defender of faith Mohammed Mohi-u-din Aurangazeb king, conqueror of universe, may god preserve his country for ever," signifying the fall of the fort in 1705.

The Wagengera fort is situated on top of two hillocks and surrounded by rocky patches. The Bedar kings shifted here after losing their fort at Sagar, now in Shahpur taluk, to the Mughals in 1667. From the day they shifted to Wagengera fort, the Bedars were a thorn in the flesh of the Mughals.

The fort built in the shape of a pentagon with seven bastions is now in a shambles. The two huge gates on the east and west of the fort are in a state of collapse, but the outer wall constructed with big boulders and mortar is in good condition.

Many, particularly the younger generation, are not aware of the valiant struggle of the Bedar kings who zealously defended the fort. So fierce was their resistance that finally Aurangazeb himself had to lead the attack to capture the fort.

Although a well-trained army like the Mughals could have breached the fort easily, it was the warring skills of the Bedars that kept the enemy at bay for a long time.

The unfortunate thing is that so far the Government has not made any effort to convert this into a tourist spot. Besides Wagengera fort, Surpur can boast of many other historical monuments including the beautiful palace of the Surpur kings.

<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Oct 15 2006, 04:02 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Oct 15 2006, 04:02 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->We have really deviated from the purpose of this thread. This thread almost looks like the Gandhi ideology thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the impact of assasination of MKG rather then MKG himself.

Having said that here are some writings from some of the men that we admire..

Swami Vivekananda..

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It has been for the good of India that religious preaching in the West has been and will be done. It has ever been my conviction that we shall not be able to rise unless the Western people come to our help. In this country, no appreciation of merit can yet be found, no financial strength, and what is most lamentable of all, there is not a bit, of practicality...I have experienced even in my insignificant life that good motives, sincerity, and infinite love can conquer the world. One single soul possessed of these virtues can destroy the dark designs of millions of hypocrites and brutes...I only want to show that our wellbeing is impossible without men and money coming from the West.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Rabindranath Tagore..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Our country having lost its links with the inmost truths of its being, struggled under a crushing load of unreason, in abject slavery to circumstances. In social usage, in politics, in the realm of religion and art, we had entered the zone of uncreative habit, a decadent tradition, and ceased to exercise our humanity.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Rammohun Roy types were worse. This was the environment and the leaders were definitely the product of their times.

---------------

PS : Guys read the Dharampal thread and his books.
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Why they both were right, especially Vivekananda !!


"It has ever been my conviction that we shall not be able to rise unless the Western people come to our help."

>> TRUE. Thats the sole benifit of the colonial presence in india btw. That they delivered us from islamic darkness. Today our everything from democracy to law to civil servants to science labs to railway lines are of western creation.



"In this country, no appreciation of merit can yet be found, no financial strength, and what is most lamentable of all, there is not a bit, of practicality."

>> SPOT ON. especially the last part where he mentions the indian lack of practicality. Its for precisely that reason (ie. we are not a practical people) that we invent precious little and cant innovate/discover, despite being a very smart people.
After 1000 years of muslim hammering, the India had no financial strength left indeed - not in hindu hands except for some kings like the Wodeyar of Mysore etc.


"I only want to show that our wellbeing is impossible without men and money coming from the West."

>>> true. We could not have had a progressive society if we were still under the muslims. Even to this day the parts of india which are the most backward are the ones which are the most Islamised and/or least Westernised.




TAGORE -

Our country having lost its links with the inmost truths of its being, struggled under a crushing load of unreason, in abject slavery to circumstances. In social usage, in politics, in the realm of religion and art, we had entered the zone of uncreative habit, a decadent tradition, and ceased to exercise our humanity.

>>>

Whoa !! That sums up indian histry under the muslims beautifully.

India till this day hasn't yet recovered her links with her hindu past.
"crushing load of unreason.. abject slavery " - TRUE again. Hindu holocaust was bloodier than Amerindian genocide and more hindu slaves were exported to the middle east (via the aptly named "hindu kush") than were blacks to usa.

in politics, ==

We had lost all touch with our own style of governance and were governed by nababs, mughals, and their appointed "zamindars" and "zagirdars".


in the realm of religion and art =====

We, the most prolific of all ancient civilizations, had produced horseshit in the field of religion, art or science ever since the muslims had the country in their grip.


we had entered the zone of uncreative habit, a decadent tradition, and ceased to exercise our humanity. =====

SPOT ON. We are still in that zone to a great extent.





As for Rammohon Roy, he was the first <b>post-islamic </b> Indian who saw the socio-cultural-religious mess that india was in the 1800's (not very different from Europe in the "dark ages") for what it was and tried to lift the darkness. Its precisely the parts of india which have not in the least been influenced by european enlightment where we still find astronomical population growth, dowry, witch/dalit burning, child marriage and other mediaval crap.

I had started a thread long back here called "what does india owe to the west" and had concluded there that their sole legacy was to pull us out of Islamic darkness (on social, cultural, scientific, political and other fronts) - all that at the cost of being reduced to utter poverty by colonialisation.

I stand by that.

Folks,
A short report by my friend Vijendra Rao has been rejected by his editor for fear that the paper will be considered pro-RSS. My father told me that there has been a huge debate in the Kannada newspaper "Vijaya Karnataka" on Tipu Sultan, with Girish Karnad and his ilk arrayed on one side, and the very well known Kannada writer and philosophy professor S. L. Bhyrappa and others on the other.

I believe it is time for a good/authentic book on Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan. I have just begun reading Abraham Eraly's books on the Mughals. A similar major effort must be made to write about Tipu to bring out the warts and all.


Ramesh


Did Tipu massacre 700 Iyengar men, women & kids?
Deepavali, the festival of lights, is observed as Dark Day even now by their descendants

PM Vijendra Rao

Less than three weeks from now will occur Naraka Chaturdashi, the famous festival of lights, but Mandyam Iyengars don't celebrate it; they observe it as a Dark Day. It was on this day over 200 years ago that Tipu Sultan herded nearly 700 men and women belonging to this community and put them to a cruel death, according to two Mysore-based scholars who have more than academic interest in this particular aspect of history.

Dr MA Jayashree and MA Narasimhan, whose close relation with the Wadiyars of Mysore goes back to more than 150 years, have brought out this fact in a paper they jointly presented at a seminar of significance at Dhvanyaloka, Mysore, not too long ago. Their all-important observations went unrecorded in the main due to poor media coverage of the seminar what was essentially academic in character. The ongoing animated debate on Tipu, set off by Minister Shankara Murthy, who has since apologised for what he said, provides an opportunity to highlight what the two scholars describe as "the forgotten chapter in the history of Mysore".

In their detailed account of the event, the couple says that the mass killing of Mandyam Iyengars, related to Tirumaliengar, the Pradhan of Mysore (referred to by the British as Tirumala Row) and living between Mandya and Srirangapatna, is very much a fact of history, not fiction created by the enemies of Tipu. Iyengars who belong to to Bharadwaja gotra, the lineage of the Pradhan, stay away from Deepavali celebrations because it was on the same day that Tipu Sultan killed their ancestors. Every child of those families is told about the bloody event that day, the paper points out.

The heroic role that dowager queen Rani Lakshammanni and her relentless battle for the restoration of the throne during the period of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan, is not adequately mentioned (except in the three-volume History of Mysore by Hayavadana Rao). "It is a pity that her persistent effort and courage despite being confined behind the curtains of the royal palace and constantly thratened by the mercurial temper of Tipu Sultan in bringing about the promise that she had made to her husband Immadi Krishnaraja Wodeyar, finds scant mention by the historians. We do not even have an authentic biography of this grand dame of Mysore who lived most of her life under house arrest," it says.

Historians have not done justice to the pradhans of Mysore either, Dr Jayashree and Nrasimhan complain, adding that Without Tirumalaiengar and his brother Narayan Row, Lakshmmanni could not have achieved her cheirshed goal. "The history of the pradhans is all the more endearing to us for we belong to Tirumalaiengar's family.

What was the provocation for Tipu to put the 700 members of this family to sword? Though Lakshammanni begins her quest for the restoration of the throne from the ascension of Hyder Ali to the throne, she started negotiating with the British in the 1760's withthe help of Tirumala Row and Narayana Row. She had assured the two brothers of the pradhanship of Mysore and one-tenth of the income of the state as their salary in perpetuity, should they succeed in their endeavour. On coming to know of this, Hyder imprisoned all their relatives.

It was in 1790's that Tipu Sultan, on coming to know of the agreement between Gen. Harris, the then Governor of Madras, and Tirumaliyengar, herded the latter's relatives for decimation. "There is no mention of this in any history book, but 200 years after the horror, the Mandyam Iyengars do not celebrate the festival. This itself is a strong indication how true the event is and how strongly they feel about the cruel end their ancestors met with for no fault of theirs," the couple points out.

Narasimhan, who is the superintendent of Jaganmohan Art Gallery, and his wife Jayashree identify themselves a a "group of people who are trying to set down the norms for re-writing of the hisotry of India with an Indian perspective" as from the Moghul historians downwards to the historians of the colonial and modern period, there seems to be a gradual polarisation of presentation, which is "glaringly biased".

"It somehow slips in to a mode where the conquerors are heaped with all the encomiums and the vanquished is made to shouler all the opprobrium the histoirans see and create," the couple says. Questioning the stand of noted historian Romilla Thapar that history has to be read in between the lines (of inscriptions), it depcrecates the tendency to brush aside folklore and tradition, "the backbone of Indian history".

Pls use this topic to discuss technology, costs, methodologies, prospects, copyrights issues, infrastructure etc for digitizing manuscripts..

=============

<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Oct 20 2006, 10:38 AM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Oct 20 2006, 10:38 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bodhi,

The situation is that many of the technical people who are fighting the battle right now are doing it on their spare time.  Their full time jobs are something else.  Even with this they have made a dent.  Such people working full-time should be able to turn the tide.

All the Indic research in IITs/IISC etc is still a labour of love rather than a full time pursuit.

It is still not rewarding enough in India for bright young folk to consider making this a career.

It is such a shame that even a century after original publication many of the original sanskrit works on astronomy, maths, tantra etc remain untranslated. 

I remember reading history of maths where greeks were worshipped and even credited with "inventing" calculus because Archemedes had a limit procedure for getting area of a  circle by summing up areas of small triangles.  It was specifically mentioned, that there was no evidence that India ever thought of even most basic elements of calculus.

Now we know that it is fair to say that Calculus was invented in India by Madhava, Nilakantha etc.  Taylor series, power series, idea of derivatives etc has been around in India for 100s of years before Newton & Leibnitz supposedly "invented" calculus. This realization dawned after a few Indians spent some time poring over Kerala maths texts. 

Even now there is no systematic translation of these texts.  You can't even buy them anywhere.  They are tucked away in some old university libraries.  When I check out many such old texts from a university library, I notice in most cases that I am the only person in the last 70-80 or even 100 years who has done that!

This is the conditions of sanskrit texts which actually got published.  There are scores of manuscripts that haven't even been touched.

Recently I was trying to study a process in Samavedic texts called "Chala-prakriya", in which a letter (akshara) called chalAkShara is used as a error correction mechanism.  For a R^icha there is a chalAkShara, same witha sAman, or even pada-pAtha.  This error-correcting mechanism is much better than simple checksum and pretty ingenious.  There have been sparse comments about it in few hard to get books.  But it is too hard to get the original texts, because those manuscripts never got published.  They are hiding in manuscript collections in England, or various locations in India.  For one two page manuscript copy, the British Library London charged me 18 pounds!  I see names of many manuscripts dealing with chalAkSharas in manuscript catalogues but have to put the effort and money to acquire them.

This is the state of affairs after half a century of independence, when leftist/marxist fatcats in JNU get paid handsomely to tarnish India, but no government agency would take upon itself to publish and translate these texts.  NDA govt at least started the National Manuscripts Mission to preserve the scattered manuscripts.  It took the bone-heads in the government this long to decide on even preserving the manuscripts.
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What are the copyright and property rights associated with this ?

<b>George's letter to Kalam, seeks govt sack on corruption issue</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On a day when CBI filed an FIR against him in connection with alleged irregularities in a defence deal, former Defence Minister George Fernandes on Tuesday, shot off a letter to President APJ Abdul Kalam demanding dismissal of UPA government on the issue of alleged corruption citing an international anti-graft watchdog report.
<b>Referring to the report by Transparency International which rates India as the worst performer on the Bribe Payer's Index (BPI), Fernandes in his letter said this means that there is violation of the law and the Constitution by those who are holding office in the government.</b>

"There cannot be anything more demeaning for our country than being a nation that has been declared as the number one corrupt nation in the world," he said.

<b>"Please dismiss this government and order elections to relieve the country from the humility that we are presently subjected to by the corrupt establishment of the government,"</b> Fernandes said.

The BPI is based on propensities of companies from the world's 30 leading exporting countries in bribing abroad. India's has been ranked at the 30th position in BPI with a score of 4.62.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061009/wl_n...orth_dc_25

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->SEOUL (Reuters) -
North Korea carried out an underground nuclear test on Monday, North Korea's Central News Agency (KCNA) said.

"Our science research section has safely and successfully conducted an underground nuclear test on October 9," it said.

It added that there was no leak or danger from the test.

South Korea's presidential Blue House said a tremor had been detected in North Korea on Monday.

It said South Korea's Institute of Geoscience and Mineral Resources had detected a tremor of a magnitude 3.58 to 3.7 at 0135 GMT.

Officials in neighboring Japan and China had no immediate comment on the reports.

North Korea announced last week it would test a nuclear device saying its hand was forced by what it called U.S. threats of nuclear war and economic sanctions. But it said it would not be the first to use a nuclear weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->