Jan Lokpal movement

[Capt Manoj Singh]

There is a great jubilation all over India at the moment as most political parties have come to consensus on the Jan Lok Pal Bill. This is the corner stone of India's fight against corruption. Kudos to Anna Hazare and his team!

[rhytha]

Frankly, i dont for 1 sec believe that this will be passed as law and the Kongress giving the enough teeth to jan lokpal as required.



But i guess thats another fight for another day.

[Guest]

Yes, Congratulations!



Anna Hazare's fast has (i) highlite corruption (ii) galvanized the people into the streets and (iii) made the political parties both ruling and opposition to agree to enact a law to curb corruption.



Anna would end the fast tomorrow and no surprise for me. I have predicted this in this forum.



Anna wins in all appearance but if it is a real victory in substance remains to be seen.

[shamu]

What happens if the bill is defeated in the parliament?

[Guest]

[quote name='shamu' date='28 August 2011 - 01:33 AM' timestamp='1314474959' post='112619']

What happens if the bill is defeated in the parliament?

[/quote]



It is not a question of the bill getting defeated because the UPA is supporting it, then who is going to oppose? The BJP?. Do you think they can without being targetted and vilified by the Congress and the kept press?



The question is what is actually in the bill and how it gets implemented. For example the PM's letter to Anna says that his three minimum demands are included in the bill but does not talk of the extent of its reach, the process of implementation and the penalty for the transgressors. One of the three demands is the setting up of Lokayuktha in all states. Even before he sent that letter to Anna the PM or his coterie have instructed the appointment of a Lokayuktha in Gujarat through the Governor bypassing the elected BJP govt. of Modi and that too an ex-judge who is a supporter of Anna. Also note that the ex-judge Hegde is a supporter of Anna and what he did in Karnataka as a Lokayuktha. He did not touch any Congress CM that included S.M.Krishna. You can now say that the P.M., the F.M. and P.Chidambaram are his supporters. Pardon me for leaving out Sonia and Raul Vinci!



Now you know how the game is going to be played.

[Guest]

[url="http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/lokpal-a-neo-con-leech/"][size="4"]Lokpal: A neo-con leech[/size][/url]

[Guest]

[url="http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/lokpal-a-neo-con-leech/"][size="4"]Lokpal: A neo-con leech[/size][/url]

[Capt Manoj Singh]

[quote name='Savithri' date='28 August 2011 - 02:21 AM' timestamp='1314493990' post='112622']

[url="http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/lokpal-a-neo-con-leech/"][size="4"]Lokpal: A neo-con leech[/size][/url]

[/quote]



Several conspiracy theories are bound to float around when a movement is successful. The above is perhaps one of them. The author claims Team Anna's bill does not distinguish between petty corruption and corruption running into sveral hundred crores. I should think even the Law will not distinguish the fact as both are criminal offences in the eyes of the law. One other smear campaign the article brings to light is 'Kabir' a party swearing alliance to Anna has accepted Rs 86 Lakhs fund from Ford foundation of the USA. A movement of the scale the country has just witnessed would require funds. We as observers do not know the authenticity of the information nor the intentions of the funding company so why speculate or give in to smearing campaign. What is happening in India is a move in the right direction, one can only hope it will cure the country of the malaise of corruption.

[Guest]

[url="http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/its-official-us-based-ford-foundation-funding-annas-movement-afroz-alam-sahi/"][size="5"]Corrupt fighters of corruption in Gandhigiri India![/size][/url]

[Capt Manoj Singh]

[quote name='Savithri' date='28 August 2011 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1314553116' post='112634']

[url="http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/its-official-us-based-ford-foundation-funding-annas-movement-afroz-alam-sahi/"][size="5"]Corrupt fighters of corruption in Gandhigiri India![/size][/url]

[/quote]



I believe clippings from someone's personal blog that is solely directed to smear a good cause is to be treated with caution. One interesting point does however emerge. Are the NGO's obliged to declare their sources of funds to everyone? I should imagine they would be required to declare their funds to the tax man but not necessarily make an universal declaration. Any comments Guys/Gals?

[Capt M Kumar]

The arrogance of both the civil society and the Government does require deliberation. The Congress got out of a jam - thus what's out is the old arrogance of the Congress. One of the biggest stumbling blocks to the negotiations was the arrogance of power and street power displayed by the civil society. What should be out and is most unwelcome is gherao of the houses of the Members of Parliament and also that of the Prime Minister. This is definitely unwelcome and not a democratic process as it was done at the behest and instigation of a single person and was done as an act of intimidation; thus what's in should be protest, what's out is carrying it to people's homes as their wives and children should not be troubled, they have done no one any harm. http://dailypioneer.com/364291/Annas-soc...s-out.html

[Guest]

[quote name='Capt Manoj Singh' date='29 August 2011 - 02:56 AM' timestamp='1314566297' post='112635']

I believe clippings from someone's personal blog that is solely directed to smear a good cause is to be treated with caution. One interesting point does however emerge. Are the NGO's obliged to declare their sources of funds to everyone? I should imagine they would be required to declare their funds to the tax man but not necessarily make an universal declaration. Any comments Guys/Gals?

[/quote]



Dear Capt Manoj Singhji,



First of all re: my posting that referred to Janamejayan's weblog. Sir, I find that this weblog posted both sides in many of its postings. This blog has been in the forefront in posting all the corruptions indulged by Sonia and her Congress for the last few years and therefore I thought it has the worthy credential. Also I myself have shared your glee in congratulating Anna, not as his fan but giving my reasons.



Secondly when you have written under the thread 'corruption watch': "How can one be assured of the legitimacy of the information?", to which I replied "Legitimacy of the info? Ask Ford Foundation to deny it!" Clearly you did not want to ask Ford Foundation or verify in any other way because, in the earlier posting under this thread you wanted to maintain: "We as observers do not know the authenticity of the information nor the intentions of the funding company so why speculate or give in to smearing campaign." So I posted the fact that someone has obtained the information under the RTI and obtained the fact that it had received funding from various sources, including the controversial Michigan (United States)-based Ford Foundation.



Sir, did it occur to you to question as to why would Ford Foundation finance someone in India and what is its motive and benefit in such funding? You clearly did not. So was the reason for my posting that referred to Sandhya Jain's article: "Lokpal: A neo-con leech". I was hoping it would enlighten you on what you missed. Now you are advising the readers that it is a smear campaign and they should treat this with caution. This is quite unfortunate. However, you indeed have the right to caution others standing by your point of view however faulty it is. So much so I too would like to inform people to NOT get carried away by appearance but know the actors and their motives. So here is another article that I would like people including you to read:



[url="http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/anna-hazare%e2%80%99s-jan-lokpal-a-puppet-on-a-string/"][size="5"]Anna Hazare’s Jan LokPal: A Puppet on a string?[/size][/url]

[simplyrohit21]

Agree with Savithriji. There are indeed strange elements to this entire 'second independence struggle'.



If I may be allowed, here is another blog (for those who enjoy reading Hindi/'खड़ी बोली'). This gentleman does an excellent job of monitoring the same (albeit somewhat polemical).



Check this out-



http://blog.sureshchiplunkar.com/2011/08...ndian.html



Warm Regards.

[roosevelt92]

that's why Anna is called the second Ghandi of India...

[Capt Manoj Singh]

This post serves to address the few points made by Savithri ji and others.



[quote name='Savithri' date='29 August 2011 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1314580756' post='112637']



....

I myself have shared your glee in congratulating Anna, not as his fan but giving my reasons./quote]



My post congratulating 'Team Anna' was an expression of joy not glee as you have mentioned as I do not, in anyway, stand to directly benefit out of victory of anti-corruption crusaders in India. I am neither a fan nor a great follower of Anna either however do believe in the good old poetic justice system of victory of the good over the evil. And Anna's Team without any shadow of doubt represents the good. Crores of Anna's supporters cannot be all wrong in their judgement.



....

So I posted the fact that someone has obtained the information under the RTI and obtained the fact that it had received funding from various sources, including the controversial Michigan (United States)-based Ford Foundation.

How can you be so sure it is not another indirect smear campaign lead by the UPA Government?



...

Sir, did it occur to you to question as to why would Ford Foundation finance someone in India and what is its motive and benefit in such funding? You clearly did not.

That comes much later. How can you be sure about the veracity of the information in the first place. I can give you at least a dozen links to write-ups and videos highlighting the extent of corruption and deceit in the Congress.



...

So was the reason for my posting that referred to Sandhya Jain's article: "Lokpal: A neo-con leech". I was hoping it would enlighten you on what you missed.

I do much appreciate your concerns, however, would like to draw your attention to the following. We Indians have basically become a dis-trusting lot, because of an over exposure to corruption and lies published almost daily in the media and experienced in the Society. So much so, if Lord Krishna walked on the streets we will treat him with distrust and doubt!



..

Now you are advising the readers that it is a smear campaign and they should treat this with caution. This is quite unfortunate. However, you indeed have the right to caution others standing by your point of view however faulty it is. So much so I too would like to inform people to NOT get carried away by appearance but know the actors and their motives.

You are as much entitled to your opinion as much as I am. However, I can only ask you to have some faith and trust on the 74-year old Gandhian who is spearheading the campaign for a better India.



So here is another article that I would like people including you to read:



[url="http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/anna-hazare%e2%80%99s-jan-lokpal-a-puppet-on-a-string/"][size="5"]Anna Hazare’s Jan LokPal: A Puppet on a string?[/size][/url]

A real anti-corruption movement should seek to provide autonomy to the enforcement agencies to go after the corrupt, so that lack of political will does not hamper investigations and convictions. Team Anna has been silent on this and this is worrying.

Is it really true? On the contrary, I think that the 'Team Anna' is demanding for a fairly autonomous body to deal with corruption at all levels be it the parliament or the judiciary.

However well-meaning the intentions of Jan Lokpal draft bill may be, undermining Parliament’s legislative powers is unacceptable.

I think the parliamentarians should be glad that the civil unrest has been entirely peaceful given the levels of corruption the country has seen witnessed in recent times. I remember reading elsewhere in this forum and others that it runs to several billions of Dollars. Parliament represents nothing but an epitome of corruption to the vast majority of Indians and nothing but Annarchy could have moved them do some good for the country for a change.

Never before has India seen so many powerful netas, babus and corporate leaders crowded in the damp cells of Tihar Jail for corruption.

We all know that the money that is siphoned out of the country by the corrupt politicians is never returned. Does imprisonment make good the loss to the country?

[quote]Anna’s fixation in passing his pet Jan Lokpal bill reminds me of a puppet on a string.[b]

Even for a moment we were to go with the analogy he would a smaller puppet than Shri Manmohan Singh ji who tows the rope of Ms Sonia Gandhi and Rahul. Besides this puppet has successfully unified the country and focussed its attention on the annihilation of corruption through peaceful yet unfaltering methods.

[b]तात्पर्य यह है कि जब तक मनुष्य की “नीयत” नहीं बदलती, तब तक जनलोकपाल का “बाप” भी कुछ नहीं कर सकता।

Couldn't agree with it more. Jan Lok Pal movement is an awakening process and the road towards corrupt free India is indeed a treacherous one that requires honest intentions. Doubting the movement or the intentions of the people who lead it will not help the country.

[dhu]

[url="http://www.firstpost.com/politics/why-annas-middle-class-has-disdain-for-parliament-67213.html"]Why Anna’s middle class has disdain for Parliament[/url]

By R Vaidyanathan

The tripod constructed by Jawaharlal Nehru consisted of socialism, secularism and parliamentary supremacy.



The socialism part went with Narasimha Rao, even though the word is still in our constitution, which declares us to be a socialist republic. Every elected representative is forced to swear by it, exposing us to total hypocrisy in running our polity.



The day the law was amended to deny alimony to Shah Bano, the edifice of secularism, too, developed a crack. In a society which considers everything, including trees and animals, sacred, the notion of “secularism” was anyway a bit stretched. It came down fully with the Ayodhya agitation. However, our constitution includes secularism in its preface. The word was inserted into the constitution during the emergency, and was not a part of the original statute.



The third leg of the Nehruvian tripod, the primacy of Parliament in making laws, was treated with an enormous amount of respect, even reverence. Members of state assemblies and Parliament were called law-makers even though a good number among them do not know what kind of laws they make. The disconnect between our burgeoning middle classes and the so-called law-makers has been widening in leaps and bounds in recent decades.

.....



It is not that the masses are dumb, but the law-makers are deaf. They talk about the supremacy of Parliament when the third leg of the Nehruvian tripod is about to collapse. Are we in a position to deal with this? Are we going to mouth age-old slogans of the public sector middle classes of the 1960s or the new software middle classes? Is it possible to bring Parliament and other elected bodies in sync with the aspirations of the new middle classes?

[Capt Manoj Singh]

[quote name='dhu' date='29 August 2011 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1314608177' post='112641']

[url="http://www.firstpost.com/politics/why-annas-middle-class-has-disdain-for-parliament-67213.html"]Why Anna’s middle class has disdain for Parliament[/url]

By R Vaidyanathan

[/quote]

While the points made by Dr Vaidyanathan are not unsubstantiated, it does go to prove that people are supreme in any Democracy. Whether they be elected representatives as in Narasimha Rao's or Shah Bano's case or they take matters into own hands as they arm twist the parliament - it is peoples democracy and people shall always remain supreme.

[dhu]

[url="http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/right-and-wrong/entry/don-t-mess-with-the-middle-class"]Don’t mess with the middle class [/url]

Swapan Dasgupta



Quote:

Worse, the movement was sought to be derailed by stoking largely imaginary fears among Muslims, OBCs and dalits—the old divide-and-rule formula which has paid such rich dividends.

[dhu]

Some more background on Ford Foundation (related to US escalation in the Vietnam War):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGeorge_Bundy

[dhu]

The original plan appears to have been to provide a secular replacement to the anti-Kangressi agitation of Baba Ramdev; thus, Anna Hazare was elevated as a replacement figure who invoked the more generic "corruption" in place of Kangressi black money invoked by Baba Ramdev (either Swapan Dasgupta or Kanchan Gupta).

The plan was to have Anna perform a token fast, this fast was to be successful in the same venue as the failed one of Baba Ramdev (which they suppressed brutally by burning down the stage and trying to start a stampede).

However, the public did not play their part of dociles and the colonial edifice of Parliament itself appeared redundant.

Kejriwal and Prashant Bhushan are secular activists, at some point they will probably jettison Hazare.