Please post all articles related to Dharampal's writings in this thread.

Folks
I am new here(registered today) and thought I will start a thread rightaway!
I thought there is no one location where one can discuss the histories of various places and the myths and legends associated with them. This is important especially in India where our combined Indic history can be a emotionally uniting factor. Lord Rama the Prince of Ayodhya(in UP) crossing over to Lanka from Rameswaram(in TN) immediately connects the people of 2 small towns in UP and TN thru a legend and a shared past. IMHO there no other single binding force like this in an incredibly diverse India. This thread will hopefully throw more light on indian places from our mythologies, puranas and right upto to modern day India.
I must admit I have nothing to offer on this thread other than starting it. I am here to learn(unlike what my nickname suggests <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and probably contribute later.
Over to you Gurus <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

How Indians' dentities often get reprogrammed to 'South Asian'.


Until reading your articles I never really gave much thought to this 'South Asian' movement on campuses. I am currently enrolled in college and I have personally seen many of my own friends reprogram their identities to 'South Asian'. It is alarming to me how impressionable many Indian youth are while in college.

Nowadays most Indian kids are more concerned about being politically correct and appearing "open minded". After reading your articles I have tried to my best to convince people to assert an Indian-American identity however, I believe my efforts so far have been failures. You have written about how Indians' identities are "South Asianized" but you have not written why so many Indian youth have followed this path. I think one reason is that this 'South Asian' movement has been successful is because Indian kids often have strict upbringings and this creates a rebellious mentality in many youth. I believe that Indian girls are often the most susceptible to brainwashing of "South Asianists" because they are often subject to stricter treatment from parents and the rest of the Indian community then boys. "South Asianists" seem to exploit this and exaggerate it to the point where Indian/Hindu culture is associated with social ills against women. These "South Asianists" also exploit the way Indian parents push their kids to enter wealth generating fields and denounce this as being materialistic and superficial. Another trend I've also noticed is the way "South Asianists" dismiss the success of Indians in America as not being the result of hard work, intelligence and education but because of "immigration law" as Mr. Vijay Prashad put it.
http://www.asiansinamerica.org/museum/comm_ind.html

Even my own sister constantly tries to propagate this to me. It amazes me even more how almost all the people getting caught up in this 'South Asian' movement are Indians. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis always join their own or Muslim student organizations. Every time I point this out to fellow Indians none of them can ever give a valid reason or beat me in a debate as to why Indians should bother with the 'South Asian' tag. I grew up in a mainly Bangladeshi and Pakistani part of Brooklyn. From when I was a little kid I understood how different and how little I have in common with non-Indian South Asians. I believe Indians in Britain are much more aware of their Indian identity because skirmishes and fights between the Indian and Pakistani youth there are a common occurrence from what I have heard. On top of that is the well documented gap in education and achievement between the two communities with Indians rising to the top and Pakistanis confined to ghetto areas like the ones in Bradford and Birmingham. Because America is a big piece of land and also the fact that the more affluent areas where Indians are more prominent and the working class neighborhoods/ghettos of NYC where Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are more prominent, are so geographically isolated, Indians living in places like Long Island and Edison, NJ have no idea how different their ideal of South Asian unity and how reality is. I commend you for what you are doing for the Indian-American community. It is absolutely essential that we do whatever we can to make sure India is portrayed in positive light.

"South Asian" seems to be a temporary/unstable state pending further engineering - it suggests, "I am ready to be tutored to become whatever you want." Its significance is not based on what it is, but based on what it leaves behind (by way of implied and polite rejection) so as to clear the space for fresh programming.

... Those who remain behind as "native" Indians are seen as the new outcasts; they are vulnerable to future genocides resulting from overpopulation and civilizational clashes. Are we Indians turning into global shudras-for-hire with no identity of our own other than whatever the latest master assigns?

Postmodernism is an imperialist export - via co-opted (whitened) third world intellectuals - to distribute "theories" that support this trend as being desirable and/or inevitable. Whitened intermediaries like Harvard's Homi Bhabha are rewarded with cushy Ivy League jobs and turned into role models for facilitating the bandwagon effect among Indian intellectuals who are anxious to escape the "problems of Indianness." Meanwhile, the Harvard cabal under the choirship of Sugata Bose dishes out demonology against Indian culture to make the carrots more attractive for assuming new identities: hence the role of Harvard as the epicenter for studying sati, dowry, incest, caste, gender conflict as Indian "essences."


Indian culture which is deemed valuable is repackaged as "white" (such as yoga/meditation these days...) and this appropriation is sold to confused Indians as being a compliment by the whites. Whatever is left behind after the scavenging is branded as backward/facsist Indianness. Between these two extremes of whiteness and Indianness, the South Asian labeling provides the safety of a middle ground with enough ambiguity and wiggle room to customize and personalize. The student who wrote the email rightfully blames orthodox parents. I would add to his list the role of US based lazy and pompous Indian cultural leaders who naively play into this phenomenon...

Hello All

I found India-Forum a very informative site. I am new here.

Does anyone have or know the history of KHANNAs in India and abroad ? Some web links / books / articles / etc may help me.

Thanks in advance.

B Khanna

<b>Oil-for-Food probe: Congress denies charges </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Volcker committee inquiry appointed by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan in 2004 also named External Affairs Minister Natwar Singh in the report.  <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->

The Congress Party said the allegations are baseless as it was not in power when the Oil-for-Food Programme was operated. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
.........
<b>BJP slams Cong</b>
<b>But the BJP is accusing the minister of having personally benefitted in the case.</b>

BJP General Secretary Arun Jaitley demanded Natwar Singh's resignation and said that the Congress should give a statement on the issue.

"How can he (Natwar Singh) continue as India's Foreign Minister even for a day if the UN report mentions him as a non-contractual beneficiary for manipulated payment in UN Food-for-Oil programme.

"Every word he speaks will be suspect and his statements on Foreign Affairs will be suspect," said Jaitley.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Oil-for-Food Programme

In 2001, Iraq was awarded the Oil-for-Food Programme from the UN while it was still under sanctions. This was being done for humanitarian reasons.

The Volcker committee now says that <b>Saddam Hussein approached Natwar Singh and the Congress party to be involved in this programme</b>.

According to the report, <b>80 lakh barrels of oil was allotted to both Natwar Singh and the Congress party. The total amount claimed by both was approximately 30 lakh barrel.</b>

Against this, <b>the Congress and Singh were expected to provide humanitarian assistance through Indian industries worth for the same amount</b>.

The report alleges that in all Saddam Hussein sold oil worth US$ 64 billion internationally and got a US$ 1.8 billion kickback

More than 100 Indian companies including <b>Reliance </b>and individuals are also listed as having done business in this deal.

The list of Indian companies includes STC, Kirloskar Engines, Ajanta Pharma, Mohan Exports, L T Overseas Ltd, Jord Engineers, National Electrical Industry, Jain Irrigation Systems, Lucky Exports and Airpac Exports<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How they did it? Is it through state they were in power? Why NDA failed to catch them?

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Oct 28 2005, 03:53 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Oct 28 2005, 03:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The writer Raja is incorrect.

The Khokkars are Jats and spread right through Punjab East and West, Haryana, Rajastan, and UP.

There is a book on Jat history written by Dr. Atal Singh Khokgar. He is the author of " Jaton ki Utpathi evam Vistar", publishedby Jaipal Agencies, 31-A Subhashpuram, Agra 282007, U.P.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Why we should trust Dr. Atal Singh version and not Raja? Jats can handle Raja facts in a tea cup.
[right][snapback]40200[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

**************
Mudy,

You are correct, and this is a good question.

The Jat clan lists, the Gotravalis, state that Khokkar is a Jat Goth (gothra)

Dr. Atal Singh Khokkar is a Hindu Jat. He identifies himself as a jat. He was born in the Patti (subdivision) of Dhankaushiyah, in the village of Chaprauli, District Baghpat, U.P.
on July 25, 1940. His father was Baldev Singh Khokkar.

He was educated in Jain College, Baraut, U.P., and did his PhD in Geography from Meerut University, Meerut (Now Chaudhary Charan Singh University). He was the librarian there

Raja, the poster, does not identify himself as a Jat, but Dr Khokkar is one.

The same poster I think) had written on Wikipedia on the Jat section. He claimed that Khokkars are not Jats.

On Wikipedia, the Jats have posted that Khokkars are Jats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat

See Clan names, under K.

In the Book section I have included the name of Dr Khokkar's book.

In the discussion section:

One gentleman had written:

“Khokkars are not Jat.

To state Khokkars are Jatt is a folly because they are essentially the descendants of the original Sassanids who took refuge in India after being defeated by the Arabs in Persia. They are a generally referred to as a Rajput clan owing to their ruling status on the Kuh-i-Jud regions of Punjab and have allied many times with various other clans such as Janjua in defeating and pushing back the Ghorid armies from their regions. Ghakkar is another variation for Khokkar. Although they are not essentially Chandra, Surya or Agnikula Vansh, they were referred to and given status of Rajput by the priests of their time, this was not a self proclaimed title. This therefore proves the fact that Jatts aren't neccesarily an ethnic group at all. Many fallen royals became Jatt i.e. Bhatti, Chauhans etc. again proving that Jat is a class name for farmers and agriculturists and not an ethnic group of seperating branches as I feel is being implied here. So to say that the Jats were in constant battle with Ghakkars is wrong because they are the same people."


I have posted the following.


“Khokkar/ Kokkar Jats are found all over Northern India.

Ghakkar is a variation of Khokkar.

The Jats themselves do not claim descent from the Sassanids, nor do they claim descent from Rajputs!

Dr Atal Singh Khokkar, a Jat, wrote a book on Jat History. “Jaton Ki Utpati evam Vistar". “

All one can do is to point to the information and to the various sources, and allow people like Mr. Raja to digest it, and draw their own conclusions.


To continue, The Khokkars are attested as being the Punjab /Haryana region since quite ancient time. They are linked to the Yaudheyas, and one of the ancient names for modern Rohtak in Haryana, was Khokrakot- Fortress of the Khokkars.

The Yaudheyas, as you are most probably aware, are dated from circa 6th century BCE to 4th/5th century CE

The history of the clan is worth exploring. I will see what material I have, and post something.

Take Care

Ravi

And NOT ONE WORD ON DRAGON's PROLIFERATION TO MuNNA and NoKo and England's own assistance to Israel's Nuke Program.

This is a psy ops article to keep telling that there is only one proliferator.

<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1][COLOR=blue] I have been a silent reader on this forum for long , this forum has helped me definetly learn a lot of new things ,compared to the intellectual giants present on this forum my knowledge is limited and consider myself a learner.

There is a question that has been haunting me for long , that is the reason for a separate thread.

how does man know the path to be taken , in other words in the gita what is swadharma and how is it decided , does it vary at each stage of life .

Tilak in his Gita rahasya has devoted quite a lot of discussion to this aspect , have listened to learned scholar's discourses on the gita and some of them hold this to be a tricky question.

for example interpolating the principles of the past to a modern man's life .

Most of us pass through our formative years going through school , high school , college ,graduate or post graduate degrees . along the way we notice lot of things about society and the country.

1.Should we not have a higher duty towards the country , sometimes life presents situations where you are asked to make a choice either you choose to study hard , graduate and then attempt to give back to society through charities , social service and other mean's or you choose to fight injustice then and there suffering whatever consequences that follow.

in this case which is the swadharma , which is the path to be followed .


2.Similarly which of the above actions carries the greater merit , the action of tackling injustice then and there and perishing like a moth , or the indirect path of improving society around you.

<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> is the act of countering adharma right at the moment more virtuous than retreating for the moment and giving back in a later form.


<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> if a man decides to counter adharma and put his family in danger would that not constitute a wrong toward's his family.


I am not sure if i am making myself clear , but surely hope people on the forum understand the direction i am pointing in .


So the burning question is , we are faced with various situations in daily life , Which is the path to be followed , is it the path of the forefathers ??? is it the path my heart tugs towards even though it would mean putting my family in danger , or is it the middle path.


if particularly the elder members could respond to this thread would be truly happy as it would point me towards a solution to a long standing doubt.

also if the members could point me in the direction of literature that explains the great karma theory and its subtleties would appreciate it .

pranaam

http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/research/p...har-banas.shtml

CACHE OF SEAL IMPRESSIONS DISCOVERED IN WESTERN INDIA
OFFERS SURPRISING NEW EVIDENCE FOR CULTURAL COMPLEXITY
IN LITTLE-KNOWN AHAR-BANAS CULTURE, CIRCA 3000-1500 B.C.
* * *
Find Provides New Insight into Widespread Trade, Cultural Exchange in Region


Excavating at the ancient town of Gilund in southern Rajasthan, India, one of the largest sites of the little-known Ahar-Banas culture, archaeologists led by teams from the University of Pennsylvania Museum and Deccan College, Pune, India have discovered a bin filled with more than 100 seal impressions (many shown here on the left) dating to 2100-1700 B.C. The existence of the seals, and their particular styles, offer surprising new evidence for the apparent complexity of this non-literate, late and post-Indus Civilization-era culture, according to Dr. Gregory Possehl, UPM curator and excavation co-director.

Dr. Possehl, collaborator Dr. Vasant Shinde of Deccan College, Pune, India, and their teams made-up of professionals and students from around the world, have conducted excavations at Gilund over four seasons, beginning in 1999. The team is working to understand the social life, history and agricultural developments of these peoples, separated by about 200 miles of largely mountainous and desert-like regions from the powerful Indus Civilization that had its heyday 2500-1900 B.C. They came upon the bin with its seal impressions in the 2002-2003 season completed in February.

The bin was in a large building that has not yet been completely excavated but is known to be larger than 25 x 60 feet, composed of parallel walls of well-made sun-dried brick. The size and nature of the building suggests that it was a "public" structure, with walls ranging in width from about 30 to 49 inches, and spaces between them about the same width. The presence of the bin within the space between two of the walls, and other signs of occupation, including pits and living debris, indicate that the long, narrow "rooms" were used for storage. While the exact nature of the commodities stored in the warehouse is not known, agricultural or animal products, possibly valuable processed items like ghee, oil and textiles, seem likely, according to Dr. Possehl.

Clay, nature's soft and plentiful sealant, has been used by people for millennia to keep containers closed. Seals, on the other hand, frequently decorated with symbols to indicate a person or persons and used to make seal impressions that lay claim or suggest special rights to a container's contents, suggest a more stratified society. While no actual seals were discovered at Gilund, the unexpected collection of so many seal impressions strongly points to the presence of a populate of elite citizens who used stamps as identification of themselves and their elevated status--and who marked commodities that were stored in this building under their control. A large oval shaped bin about 5 feet deep and 2.5 feet in diameter at its midpoint, to keep the seal impressions in--and potentially keep others from duplicating specific impressions for their own use--further indicates the elitist nature of this warehouse.

The impression designs (example shown at left, a), according to Dr. Possehl, offer additional evidence for a more worldly-wise culture than was formerly assumed to exist at Gilund. The impressions found in the bin were made from seals both round and rectilinear. The design motifs are generally quite simple, with wide-ranging parallels from Indus Civilization sites such as Chanhu-daro, Pirak, Kot Diji and Nindowari, 400 to 500 miles away. There are also distinct parallels with seals from another cultural group archaeologists call the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC), from as far away as Central Asia and northern Afghanistan, 1,000 miles to the northwest (examples of actual BMAC seals are shown at left, b).

"Gilund is providing us with good evidence for a stratified society that had wide-ranging contacts between the peoples of western India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia just at the end of the third millennium and the beginning of the second millennium," noted Dr. Possehl. "Archaeologists have known for a number of years that the so-called BMAC peoples were in Sindh and Baluchistan, as well as Iran, and even as far south as the Arabian Gulf. This, however, is the first time that such evidence has come from so deep within India, significantly expanding the geographic picture of a critical period of regional change, when the once-powerful Indus Civilization is undergoing a process of transformation."

That transformation, Dr. Possehl notes, eventually led to the abandonment of the great Indus cities, the simplification of the Indus people's socio-cultural system, the loss of much of their technological virtuosity, and an end to their system of writing and measurements. "Learning more about how cultures like the Ahar-Banas and BMAC interacted with the Indus Civilization may help to broaden our understanding of the rise, and fall, of great civilizations of the world," said Dr. Possehl.

Excavations at Gilund will resume next winter, when the archaeologists will explore the wall or walls discovered last season around the site to determine if the town was fortified. They will also further explore the large public building where the impressions were found, seeking further evidence of the building's function.

Funding for the Gilund Project was made possible by grants from the National Science Foundation, the University of Pennsylvania Museum, private donors, and Deccan College, Pune, India.

Dr. Gregory Possehl (below, left) is Curator-in-Charge of UPM's Asian Section. Information on Dr. Possehl's principal publications and excavations at Rojdi may be found by visiting his homepage. Dr. Possehl's collaborator, Dr. Vasant Shinde, of Deccan College, Pune, India, is shown here (below right photo, on the left) with University of Pennsylvania graduate student Praveena Gullapalli.

<img src='http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/research/possehl/images/map2.small.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

I read and heard that there is a planned move, to
allow foreign companies to tap into the potentially
huge retail market in india.

i want to ask, why doesnt the indian government do
the needful itself?

If the market is as huge as experts predict it is,
then why doesnt GOI start public sector companies of
the nature of O.N.G.C.s and BHEL's and harness the
market itself?? That way the profits can remain in
India.

If the GOI finds it difficult to raise the kind of
cash needed to be able to take the plunge single
handedly, then at the very least, it should try and
set up joint ventures wih foreign companies a-la
MARUTI-SUZUKI.

That way too, we can salvage some of the profit and
keep it in our country instead of watching MNC's come
here and make a mad loot out of INDIA, the way the
Pepsi's and the McDonalds do.

It would be a shame if such a big market was left
unexplored, and the entire future retail pie of India
got carved up by alien MNC's.

Another possible option would be to team up with some
of the bigger Indian companies, like the Tatas,
Birlas, Ambanies, Sahara's and Goenkas (the last
already have some sort of a retail chain goiing) who
could very well be interested and would be able to
afford to chip in.

The end result of both the two latter alternatives,
which try to prevent MNC's to carve it all up, is
that- India stands to have a few home grown giant
companies this way.

Else Dadabhai Naoroji's famous "Drain Theory" will
again be vindicated, and the money of the common
Indian man will end of filling pockets in foreign
shores.

I hope and trust that you will try to explore this
possibility and please take the trouble of contacting
the people who have a say in these matters.

We can ill afford to let such a huge chance go by -
afterall we didn't allow foreign companies to tap into
our Air traffic market or Petroleum market. Why then,
should we allow a complete "Coca-colonization" of our
(potentilly HUGE) retail market?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


thats was a retouched version of a mail i had sent to FICCI.

what do you all think of the idea???

and do you think we could get a petition-online or something to make ourselves heard ?? do you have other options ??


oh yes... hi everyone.