Cool down Guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I started this topic to discuss anything related to Arya Samaj. It's contributions to Hindu society have been great and need not be repeated here. Also I just wanted to discuss negative aspects of arya samaj as well (like contributing to the alienation of sikhs by calling Guru Nanak a pretender etc) and also the reasons for the decline of arya samaj. I will start off the topic by giving a short passage from Koenraad Elst's book "Who is a Hindu?" in which he discusses whether Arya Samaj is Hindu:

6.6. Is the Arya Samaj Hindu?

Many Hindus feared that a different outcome in the RK Mission court case might have had a disastrous precedent value for other organizations with a weak Hindu self-identification. Jagmohan, former Governor of Jammu & Kashmir and a hero of the Hindutva movement, comments: “Had the Supreme Court come to the same conclusion as the Calcutta High Court, many more sects and denominations would have appeared on the scene claiming positions outside Hinduism and thereby causing further fragmentation of the Hindu society.”37

Then again, perhaps the effect of a recognition of the RK Mission as a minority would not have been nearly as dramatic as Jagmohan expected, for in several states, another Hindu reformist organization has enjoyed minority status for decades without triggering the predicted exodus. Jagmohan himself has noted a case where “the temptations in-built in Article 30 impelled the followers of Arya Samaj to request the Delhi High Court to accord the status of a minority religion” but “the Division Bench of the Delhi High Court rightly rejected the contention of the Arya Samaj”.38 However, as early as 1971, the Arya Samaj gained the status of “minority” in Panjab. Then already, it had that status in Bihar, along with the Brahmo Samaj.39

In a way, the Arya Samaj is a minority: the Arya-Samajis are fewer in number than the non-Arya-Samajis.40 By this criterion, every Hindu sect is a minority, and every Hindu school which calls itself “Shaiva school” or “Ram bhakta school” would pass as a minority institution, protected by Art.30. But that is of course not how the courts and the legislators have understood it: in principle, all Hindu minorities within the Hindu majority are deprived of the privileges accorded to the “real” minorities.

In Swami Dayananda’s view, the term Arya was not coterminous with the term Hindu. The classical meaning of the word Arya is “noble”. It is used as an honorific term of address, used in addressing the honoured ones in ancient Indian parlance.41 The term Hindu is reluctantly accepted as a descriptive term for the contemporary Hindu society and all its varied beliefs and practices, while the term Arya is normative and designates Hinduism as it ought to be. Swami Dayananda’s use of the term Arya is peculiar in that he excludes the entire Puranic (as opposed to the Vedic) tradition from its semantic domain, i.e. the major part of contemporary Hinduism. Elsewhere in Hindu society, “Arya” was and is considered a synonym for “Hindu”, except that it may be broader, viz. by unambiguously including Buddhism and Jainism. Thus, the Constitution of the “independent, indivisible and sovereign monarchical Hindu kingdom” (Art.3:1) of Nepal take care to include the Buddhist minority by ordaining the king to uphold “Aryan culture and Hindu religion” (Art.20: 1).42 Either way, the semantic kinship of the two terms implies that the group which chose to call itself Arya Samaj is a movement to reform Hinduism (viz. to bring it up to Arya standards), and, not another or a newly invented religion.

The Arya Samaj’s misgivings about the term Hindu already arose in tempore non suspecto, long before it became a dirty Word under Jawaharlal Nehru and a cause of legal disadvantage under the 1950 Constitution. Swami Dayananda Saraswati rightly objected that the term had been given by foreigners (who, moreover, gave all kinds of derogatory meanings to it) and considered that dependence on an exonym is a bit sub-standard for a highly literate and self-expressive civilization. This argument retains a certain validity: the self-identification of Hindus as “Hindu” can never be more than a second-best option. On the other hand, it is the most practical choice in the short run, and most Hindus don’t seem to pine for an alternative.
http://voi.org/books/wiah/ch6.htm

And the following is a link to an online book by Swami Dayananad Saraswati (founder of Arya Samaj) titled "Satyaprakash":

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/books.html

I would like to start the thread with links to discussion of Bharati Mukherjee's "Two ways of belonging in America" op-ed in New York TImes in 1996. She wrote that piece to contrast her way versus her sister Mira. The background was that the new INS reform bill denied benefits to non citizens. Mira her sister wrote in NYT as to how she feels about it having contributed to the system and how the rules were changed later.

Now we have Indira Nooyi, CEO of PEPSICO, speaking to the graduating class of Columbia Business school. Here she tries to put in prespective what the global world things of US.

Text of speech: Indira Nooyi at Columbia Business School-2005

Comments on her speech: Sample comments

Blog :Blog on the speech

looks like Indian Americans have come a long way since 1996.

I would like to Start a thread on International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), it's Sampradhaya, Idealogies, and it's world-view of other traditions (Indic and non-Indic.)

<b>Purpose of the thread:</b> While many are enchanted by the "Hare Krishna" groups spreading the message of Krishna Consciousness, there is also an undercurrent that's quite unclear. With some Hindus being uncomfortable with the claims made by Hare Krishna (like "Darwin is a rascal, confusing the world" etc.) that we would like to understand. Some of the claim on Scientific and spiritual matters are questionable, and it is only by questioning can we clarify. (At this point the thread does not claim ISKCON is wrong. It only is seeking to understand the logic and motive behind the claims.)

Many traidional Vaishnavas do not feel comfortable with Iskcon Idealogy and the method in which it propogates it's idealogies.

<b>Rules for discussion:</b>
(*) Focus will be on the idealogies. Any statement, when challenged, will have to be backed by a valid Source (pramaana.) This could be the Shruthi, Smrithi or logic according to Nyaaya shastra.
(*) The posts SHALL NOT contain any personal name-calling, flame baits on other derogatory remarks on forum members.
(*) If one member does not understand the argument/counter-argument, he/she shall state the assumption and ask for clarification.
(*) Try not to mock and throw sweeping allegations or character maligning if it is speculative and not supported by reference to available material.
(*) Keep the tone of conversation civil.
(*) All members are welcome to participate. Defend and challenge passionately, but not spitefully.

Hari Om.

http://iskcon.com/
http://science.krishna.org/
http://iskcon.com/education/culture/1.htm

To understand the Hindu thought of linkage between human being and ecology, one should realize that man is not just a body, but consciousness, a living energy that is self-aware and that possesses mind and memory. This process of involves development of consciousness, both qualitatively and quantitatively giving meaning and purpose to one’s life, as well as of lives of virtually all living beings. Merging with god is merging of environment and consciousness, and be aware of it.

Hindus believe that evolution of any individual soul starts with the first rudiments which are initially diffusive. This tiny spark then gets incarnated into bodies of plants, where it continues to grow, then it moves into animal bodies and finally into human ones. The human stage evolution of the soul implies, and not limited to, an understanding and experience of these fundamental principles of consciousness’ development as well as taking an active part in this process. Thus Hinduism's philosophical and religious principles treat “Ecology” as part and parcel of humanity.

Ashwatha is sacred to Hindus. Sankaracharya interprets ashwatha as representing the entire cosmos. Ashwatha is a unique and remarkable tree as the branches themselves morph into roots, and even when the original tree decays and perishes the young branches underneath continue to grow and enclose the parent. This eternal life of the Ashwatha has inspired many a Hindu philosophers over millennia.

There was a time in India when a Ashwatha was planted in the premises of every temple, and was regarded as the Tree of Life.

This thread is to collect articles that bring out the very aspect in Hindu Thought and culture (Concerns, Practices in preserving nature), promote pro-active environmental activism and awareness, based on Dharma the universal law, to prevent ecological imbalances and environmental disasters.

Let us re-learn it.

Xposted--

I think there are two lines of discussion around Arun's posts --
firstly, is there something that can be considered common in the
experience of the Indian traditions and secondly how should they be
classified.

I think there is reasonable consensus around the fact that the
Indian traditions cannot be described as religion as well as the
fact the phenomena is experienced differently within Western and
Eastern cultures.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_7615...duism.html

Part of where we were stuck was the label of Hinduism -- i.e. even
if there is a commonality of experience (we won't say exactly what
right now), does the label Hinduism server to meaningfully
distinguish a category of phenomena from another one,
say "Buddhism." I think the point that Balu is making is that this
distinction is arbitrary and does not encapsulate a real category in
the world. In the new Encarta article on Hinduism we find:

"A Hindu is thus identified by a dual exclusion. A Hindu is someone
who does not subscribe to a religion of non-Indian origin, and who
does not claim to belong exclusively to another religion of Indian
origin—Buddhism, Jainism, or Sikhism. This effort at definition
produces a rather artificial distinction between Hinduism and other
dharmic traditions, which stems from an attempt to limit a system
that sees itself as universal to an identity that is strictly
religious. In many ways, labeling the other dharmic traditions as
non-Hindu has a basis that derives more from politics than from
philosophy. Indeed, greater differences of belief and practices lie
within the broad family labeled as Hinduism than distinguish
Hinduism from other dharmic systems.

Indian historian Irfan Habib makes this point when he quotes an
early Persian source that Hindus are those who have been debating
with each other within a common framework for centuries. If they
recognize another as somebody whom they can either support or oppose
intelligibly, then both are Hindus. Despite the fact that Jains
reject many Hindu beliefs, Jains and Hindus can still debate and
thus Jains are Hindus. But such discourse does not take place
between Hindus and Muslims because they do not share any basic
terms.
"

Clearly however, that way (people in) the Indian culture experience
phenomena is itself a commonality as well as a distinction from the
West. However, can one say more that is in common vs. the experience
of other societies that are non-religious?

"Terror AID"?
Communist - Pakistani links to Attack Inside Democracies
By: Veera Vaishnava

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?m...t&counter_img=4

Non-BJP CMs want Centre to evict Bangladeshis
Pioneer Neews Service/ New Delhi

At CMs meet, B'deshi and Naxal menace takes centrestage--- The issue of infiltration from Bangladesh dominated the Chief Ministers' conference on Friday with chief ministers of at least seven non-BJP states asking the Centre to take steps to firmly tackle the controversial issue which posed a grave threat to national security.

The alarm bells rung by the Chief Ministers of Maharashtra, West Bengal, Meghalaya, Manipur, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh and Mizoram should come as a wake up call for the UPA Government at the Centre, which has been reluctant to admit the danger of Bangladeshi infiltration.

The issue of illegal infiltration from Bangladesh has often generated much controversy in the political arena. While the BJP has been in the forefront of seeking strong action against the infiltrators, Congress and many of its UPA allies have been shy of admitting the problem because of votebank considerations. In many Lok Sabha seats and Assembly segments along the Bangladesh border, the infiltrators are in a position to decide the fate of candidates, which exposes the policy of appeasement being practiced by many political parties.

The meeting called to discuss internal security issues saw concern on illegal infiltration from Bangladesh emerging as the main focus of debate along with growing problems of Naxal menace.

While chief ministers of Maharashtra and West Bengal separately spoke of the danger of infiltration from Bangladesh and its linkage with ISI activities, the issue brought five chief ministers from the North East on one platform.

Alarmed by the rising illegal immigration into North-East from Bangladesh, the chief ministers of the five states of the region asked the Centre to increase security along the international borders and help them strengthen their police forces.

They also demanded that the region's insurgency problems be treated as a "national issue as in the case of Kashmir" so that these could be solved quickly.

"Steps have been taken to ensure that the demographic structure of the North-East is kept intact. The Centre should strengthen the presence of border security force along the borders with Bangladesh," Meghalaya Chief Minister DD Lapang told a Press conference.

"They should enhance its manpower and modernise its mechanism for checking immigration. We also expect financial support for modernising our police forces," he added.

He was joined by his counterpart from Arunachal Pradesh Gegong Apang, Manipur CM O Ibobi Singh, Mizoram CM Zoramthanga and Nagaland CM Neiphiu Rio.

Differences within the states on the issue of illegal immigration, however, became evident with Mr Rio virtually charging Assam with not taking steps to check it.

"Assam has almost become a breeding ground for illegal migrants as they are procuring documents like ration cards there and then coming to the hills, this is very dangerous," the Nagaland CM said.

Mr Rio also claimed that such migrants were being settled in disputed areas between Assam and several other states.

The Congress-led Maharashtra Government also made a strong plea to the Centre for greater coordination and support to tackle the problem of Bangladeshi nationals, whose "heavy influx" into the state, especially in Mumbai, posed a serious threat to the internal security.

Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh, addressing the conference of internal security, said a large number of Bangladeshi nationals were settled in the slums in Mumbai and some other cities like Pune, Nagpur, Nasik, and their involvement in criminal activities and organised crime was growing.

Besides, a number of Bangladeshi girls are also finding their way into the flesh trade and dance bars of Mumbai, he said, adding that detection, arrest and deportation of the Bangladeshi nationals was "problematic and time-consuming."

Mr Deshmukh wanted a more effective, cohesive and institutionalised mechanism of intelligence sharing between the Centre and the state, considering Mumbai's special place in the overall security scenario.

He wanted the Centre to help the state set up a team for Mumbai to tackle the situation arising out of possible deployment of weapons of mass destruction by terrorists in Mumbai.

Mr Deshmukh said intelligence reports have indicated the gameplan of Pakistan's ISI of landing arms and explosives on the west coast of India and simultaneously operating through the underworld to push in fake currency to shatter the economy.

The Left Front Government of West Bengal was also equally forceful in its presentation about the threat from infiltration. Expressing serious concern over infiltration of ISI agents into India from the neighbouring country who are engaged in espionage and other 'subversive activities, Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharya said state police along with the central agencies have been taking effective action against these elements.

West Bengal has been maintaining a strict vigil along the entire stretch of the state's international border, particularly with Bangladesh, it has put its machinery on high alert and was closely monitoring the situation, he said.

Apart from the continuing incidents of infiltration across the Indo-Bangladesh border, Mr Bhattacharya said recent intelligence inputs indicating heightened activities of the ISI and fundamentalist organisations in the neighbouring country pose a serious threat to the Eastern region of India.

"Yesterday Once More" Part 1: FOIL PRIMER
By Narayanan Komerath

A Destitute Hindu

Sometimes I feel, India may not be a rudderless ship (136 Billion Forex), it is that Indians may be navigating International waters without a compass (they lack CDC). Or there are too many captains of the calm sea on board S.S.INDIA, (mind you I never said M.V.INDIA, big difference -- one is steam ship, the other a motor vessel) But does not the GOI know that too many cooks spoil the broth?

This is what is exactly happening with our India, if New Delhi is something to be looked at, For we have quasi junk, dormant, do-nothing PMO on one side, untutored MEA on the other hand which is busy producing mother of all blunders a la Korea (yes, nukes are big mistake of India), Nepal (no Indian arms for it, only Pak-China), Vatican (mourning blunder) and finally a queen Sonia with crown sans Indian Monarchy, with yes mam stooges a la Ahmed Patels.

Too many crooks spoil the brothel.

With above unique qualities full of petty character, why do you think western nations would give us any respect? Don't these nations fully know, that even a country like Sudan is better than India on certain terms?

Sudan, being a pariah state of course, nevertheless, this tiny winy country has never been stamped as soft state, lamb state, comatose country, rudderless ship and all other contemptuous names synonyms with India. This smaller country is capable of defying UN a la Darfur, do what they think is good for them a la China (although it may not be), but they have the resolve, which India lacks big time.

What good is your gun if you cannot fire it?

When is the last time we played a hardball with pony Bangladesh - leave mighty US alone for a moment? In an international arena India is like a burger with bone, whiskey without alcohol, that nobody desires. Look at Mister Modi who was cloned as Castro by State Dept scientists because he possesses all the qualities to be the future Prime Minister of India.

Writing is on the sky, Look at the pregnant Falcons flying with a womb (nukes).

Indians should not be asked what is wrong with them, everything is wrong since inception of Mughul Raj of India, Mahatma Gandhi's FIR was filed in Urdu language, Jawaharlal Nehru was upbeat on Farsi than Hindi language, our Rajya Sabha members a la Shabana and Kuldeeps are busy protecting Islamic terrorists and questioning our police instead (ansal plaza), rather they should be asked what is right with them. If Indians cant care for their own survival -- nothing is right with them -- never will be.

Gone are those days of cavemen's world, where crime did strike first, police came later, right now we live in a lawful society bound by ethics n constitution and not otherwise, hence the onus is on our premiers and chiefs of the Indian high command to ensure that they deliver the prudent and conducive environment for us Indians to live in which we should be free from corrupt clutches of Laloos, Shahi imams of India and Dawoods of Pakistan and survive peacefully -- to thrive in India seems to be the luxury.

Haji Mastan is long dead but long liveth Dawood Ibrahim with star and crescent empire of Islam, who with his giant robotic arm, transfers Indian resources to Islamabad, with his multi million extortion empire, whose victims are exclusively Hindus -- there is no stop to Hindu misery; http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_050324.htm

I am sorry, but our own secular Hindus are not realizing what is waiting in the wings for them, come September. Why do they always think hunky dory despite Sabarmati Express a la Godhra, Ghatkoper Bomb Blast, Coimbatore Bomb Blast, Bombay Bomb Blast, where a series of fifteen massive explosions rocked the length and breadth of Bombay, India on Friday, March 12, 1993? The blasts, which killed at least two hundred and twenty-eight people and injured more than 1,200, reportedly struck several Bombay neighborhoods simultaneously.

Don't worry, that was, after all, the same thinking of those rich Hindus of Hyderabad under Nizam's rule and those of Noakhali, who got decimated and got converted ultimately. It would be your turn next, if you don't mend your ways of Ishwar-Allah and Ram-O-Rahim a la Gandhi.

Nearly half a million Kashmiri Hindu Pundits are still knocking some doors without success.

Hindus better be proud villains of today than a poor victims of tomorrow.

Turn the tide on phony seculars by thinking 3D.

Keshto Patel.